45% of men 18 to 25 have never asked out a woman in person
I can’t speak for the whole 45% but some of us have heard stories from women about how that other 55% can behave. I think I’d rather wait for a lady to (never) ask me out then put someone in the position of thinking “Oh, is he gonna take it bad if I say no?”
This is it. I feel like I am inflicting myself on women. That I am a problem for them simply for existing. Why would I do something like that to someone if its as bad as we are always being told?
The only stories of women with bad experiences I know of weren’t about having to tell somebody ‘No’. They were about having repeatedly say ‘No’ again and again to the same person.
If you ask a woman out and take a ‘No’ gracefully, you are not a bad experience for anybody except you experiencing rejection of course. The hypothetic situation where she considers wether you may take it bad is more about a broader social phenomenon but not about you in that moment. The moment you are like ‘Okay, that’s sad, but I understand’ and go your way, everything will be fine.
You should think about some preconditions about asking her out like not doing it while blocking the only exit or while she’s at work but I guess that counts as “Making a good first impression” anyways regardless of gender.
So walk away from them, or handle it gracefully somehow. It’s the same as trying to make a friend. Doesn’t everyone make friends from time to time?
Interest + effort = relationship of any kind. Find the shared interest, make a little bit of effort… or don’t and the math doesn’t work. If romance doesn’t come, you’ve made a friend.
If every individual you approach gives you a lecture you might want to check out not being around those people. Try something different.
I’ve never, ever gotten a lecture. I’ve been married for about four years, but before the pandemic I picked up 4 women in a year that led to relationships of months before I ended them when I realized there wasn’t enough there to keep me interested. Don’t get me wrong, i’ve been dumped plenty and rejected plenty. I just learned to move on from the rejection.
It’s like job hunting, it’s a numbers game and every time you try you have a chance. Every time you don’t try nothing changes.
I just can’t imagine being lectured just by approaching someone and saying hi, asking them a question that is pertinent to the scenario, and giving them a chance to speak.
If you’re approaching strangers and asking them for a date and you aren’t an adonis, wealthy or otherwise instantly recognizable in a positive way, you’re gonna get some real negative responses. No one wants some rando just asking them out, but this is not new, this is why if you go to a bar you have a wing man - being solo looks creepy.
It’s true though that I wouldn’t have dated women who are 28 or younger (seems to be the oldest of gen Z.) I’m 40. Even though i’m of another generation it’s basically been a 10% chance or less to approach someone and ask them out… but again if you don’t try it never happens. Most people are in a relationship ALL the time… the best relationships i’ve found have been by making friends first in real world circumstances (board game meetups, parties, work functions/events, hiking meetups, running meetups… you name it…) and then being friendly and literally making friends with people. If you click with someone you can literally feel it, and if you like them enough then after you’re already at least friendly acquaintances you ask them to something.
If you can’t ever make friends at a meetup or event, especially one that invites strangers and often has newcomers, the problem is you.
Sounds like a lot of games and manipulation that is way less intuitive than equal relationships.
Women don’t like it when men try to date them by pretending to be their friend. If you go into new hobbies trying to date people then that’s what your motives are, so why lie?
I’m glad men are adopting the same standards as women. Now women will need to learn to initiate relationships, and our society can move twoards a more equal one.
it’s just that you’re fragile and a disgrace. it’s revolting. the fascists are taking over. grow some confidence. we need heroes, not insecure little boys. you know what will get you laid real quick? bashin the fash.
Yes, fragility is disgracefvll veakness. To defeat the enemy ze men mvst be strong, zey mvst be heroes, zey must have vill to seize vhat zey vant. It vill to pover zat vill tvrn little boys into strong men. Zis is antifascism.
My personal experience trumps your personal experience!
This is the problem. We’re all so keen to talk, and not to listen. You’re old enough to have fucked dude’s Grandma? Congratulations you lived in a different world.
“Polite” implies that if you’re agreeable and friendly women will understand that you’re interested in them and not just being agreeable and friendly.
I think part of the problem is that what we’re all really after is fucking, which isn’t polite at all. Being polite about it just makes you look weak and ineffective at the thing that we all say we want but can’t mention.
If any mention of sex by a man is considered inappropriate, how is a man supposed to negotiate sex?
This is a big reason why I’m engaged: We got the impolite part out of the way first.
The “sex is impolite” thing… I think that’s a lot bigger than a lot of people give credit. I grew up in a non-denominational Christian house in the deep South. The only sex education I got was abstinence only, if you have sex with someone it’s basically the same as having sex with every person that person has ever had sex with. Your penis will fall off, her vagina will fall off, and you’ll have 37 babies.
Obviously, on an intellectual level, I’ve rejected all of that. Sex is fine and normal, having multiple partners throughout your life is normal. Your penis and her vagina will be fine, as long as you’re careful. No kids if you’re careful.
Despite this, for my entire life, sex has just been a thing that you don’t talk about. You don’t ask for. You’re not a friend if you want sex, you’re a pest. But also, you can’t want sex from someone you’ve just met, then you’re a creep and a pervert. You have to be their friend first, build a relationship and then you can want sex, but remember - you’re not a friend if you want sex, so you’re just living a lie to get sex. It’s a vicious catch 22. One of the biggest driving factors in all animals - sex - and we’ve moralized it so that we both cannot seek it and must obtain it.
I’ve got a fair few female friends. Some of them I would not mind having a deeper relationship with. But there’s always the struggle. Am I just being nice to get with her? Well, I can’t do that - I’d feel like a horrible person. So let’s just be friends and ignore the feelings for too long. Let’s let her believe we’re just friends, nothing more, until I can’t ignore it, confess feelings, and - shocker - that’s not a recipe for a relationship.
We’re all products of our environment. I can recognize a lot of the factors that have led me to having the mentality that I do. Unfortunately, the environments for so many of us are just not good ones. It feels like every major force in our lives is pushing us towards isolation. The problem isn’t men, isn’t women, it’s all just fucked. The whole thing needs an overhaul.
Thanks for this because it is exactly what I’m talking about. I wasn’t raised in a Christian house, but anything that was even vaguely titillating was considered obscene. When your mom angrily throws out a Victoria’s Secret catalog calling it “disgusting” how are you supposed to feel about liking the pictures?
If someone thinks their physical attraction is disgusting, perverse, or annoying how are they supposed to negotiate a relationship?
And unfortunately, one of the only places that are consistently telling young men they AREN’T disgusting, perverse and annoying is the same place that actively makes men into annoying, perverse, disgusting people. For a lot of young men, the only consistent positive reinforcement they receive is from Tate et al. The only ones teaching men (poorly, but still) how to navigate these interpersonal relationships are the ones turning them into pests.
None of this is the individual woman’s fault. None of this is the individual man’s fault. It’s a societal failing, and the only way we’re going to fix it is as a society. Men’s problems are women’s problems, and women’s problems are men’s problems. We all shape the world we share, and we all have a duty to shape it into a better one, for everyone.
A little empathy goes a long way, friend. Obviously I have personal responsibility. My post was not an attempt to eschew responsibility, but to tell my story.
A lot of people are in similar situations. I AM lucky enough to be smart and able to pull myself out of that kind of upbringing. Here’s the kicker - a LOT of people aren’t. Or are in even worse situations. Understanding where people are coming from and the unique challenges they’ve experienced, that shale who they are - that’s the only way we’re going to change anything societally.
I can’t speak for the whole 45% but some of us have heard stories from women about how that other 55% can behave. I think I’d rather wait for a lady to (never) ask me out then put someone in the position of thinking “Oh, is he gonna take it bad if I say no?”
Also, some of us are gay.
This is it. I feel like I am inflicting myself on women. That I am a problem for them simply for existing. Why would I do something like that to someone if its as bad as we are always being told?
You’re not a burden.
And that attitude and thought process is exactly why you would have a hard time dating. Don’t think like that, friend.
You’ve drank too much ideological koolaid. People aren’t what you read in the news or a great deal of the internet.
It’s actually really easy to get a date in person if you are not a total ogre and treat women like normal people.
Weirdo white knights can easily end up as incels. Neither of those groups tend to do very well in actual social situations.
It’s really easy?
yes
Exactly right! Great post!
Bachelor pride vibes.
The only stories of women with bad experiences I know of weren’t about having to tell somebody ‘No’. They were about having repeatedly say ‘No’ again and again to the same person. If you ask a woman out and take a ‘No’ gracefully, you are not a bad experience for anybody except you experiencing rejection of course. The hypothetic situation where she considers wether you may take it bad is more about a broader social phenomenon but not about you in that moment. The moment you are like ‘Okay, that’s sad, but I understand’ and go your way, everything will be fine.
You should think about some preconditions about asking her out like not doing it while blocking the only exit or while she’s at work but I guess that counts as “Making a good first impression” anyways regardless of gender.
Get out and ask some people. Plenty of women like it as long as you’re polite
Until you approach another wrong one and you get another lecture for saying hi
This shit is actually happening
So walk away from them, or handle it gracefully somehow. It’s the same as trying to make a friend. Doesn’t everyone make friends from time to time?
Interest + effort = relationship of any kind. Find the shared interest, make a little bit of effort… or don’t and the math doesn’t work. If romance doesn’t come, you’ve made a friend.
Enough negative experiences reinforce and define behavior.
This is true for any being with a nervous system.
IDK why you think every individual magically changing is something realistic.
Unless you don’t let them.
To be honest, it doesn’t sound like you want to change. You are so resistant to it.
If every individual you approach gives you a lecture you might want to check out not being around those people. Try something different.
I’ve never, ever gotten a lecture. I’ve been married for about four years, but before the pandemic I picked up 4 women in a year that led to relationships of months before I ended them when I realized there wasn’t enough there to keep me interested. Don’t get me wrong, i’ve been dumped plenty and rejected plenty. I just learned to move on from the rejection.
It’s like job hunting, it’s a numbers game and every time you try you have a chance. Every time you don’t try nothing changes.
I just can’t imagine being lectured just by approaching someone and saying hi, asking them a question that is pertinent to the scenario, and giving them a chance to speak.
You haven’t tried dating GenZ women then.
They specifically tell you not to approach women in public.
And you know good and well that asking someone on a date is nowhere close to saying hi. Stop lying to yourself to feel right it’s embarrassing XD
If you’re approaching strangers and asking them for a date and you aren’t an adonis, wealthy or otherwise instantly recognizable in a positive way, you’re gonna get some real negative responses. No one wants some rando just asking them out, but this is not new, this is why if you go to a bar you have a wing man - being solo looks creepy.
It’s true though that I wouldn’t have dated women who are 28 or younger (seems to be the oldest of gen Z.) I’m 40. Even though i’m of another generation it’s basically been a 10% chance or less to approach someone and ask them out… but again if you don’t try it never happens. Most people are in a relationship ALL the time… the best relationships i’ve found have been by making friends first in real world circumstances (board game meetups, parties, work functions/events, hiking meetups, running meetups… you name it…) and then being friendly and literally making friends with people. If you click with someone you can literally feel it, and if you like them enough then after you’re already at least friendly acquaintances you ask them to something.
If you can’t ever make friends at a meetup or event, especially one that invites strangers and often has newcomers, the problem is you.
Sounds like a lot of games and manipulation that is way less intuitive than equal relationships.
Women don’t like it when men try to date them by pretending to be their friend. If you go into new hobbies trying to date people then that’s what your motives are, so why lie?
I’m glad men are adopting the same standards as women. Now women will need to learn to initiate relationships, and our society can move twoards a more equal one.
it’s just that you’re fragile and a disgrace. it’s revolting. the fascists are taking over. grow some confidence. we need heroes, not insecure little boys. you know what will get you laid real quick? bashin the fash.
Yes, fragility is disgracefvll veakness. To defeat the enemy ze men mvst be strong, zey mvst be heroes, zey must have vill to seize vhat zey vant. It vill to pover zat vill tvrn little boys into strong men. Zis is antifascism.
I’ve never ever had that happen. And I’m old enough to have fucked your grandma when she was still young and cute.
I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but I just don’t think it’s nearly as common as Lemmy likes to believe.
My personal experience trumps your personal experience!
This is the problem. We’re all so keen to talk, and not to listen. You’re old enough to have fucked dude’s Grandma? Congratulations you lived in a different world.
And I’m still in this world. Dude I still date. I’m only in my 50’s. I’m not even as old as Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise.
“Polite” implies that if you’re agreeable and friendly women will understand that you’re interested in them and not just being agreeable and friendly.
I think part of the problem is that what we’re all really after is fucking, which isn’t polite at all. Being polite about it just makes you look weak and ineffective at the thing that we all say we want but can’t mention.
If any mention of sex by a man is considered inappropriate, how is a man supposed to negotiate sex?
This is a big reason why I’m engaged: We got the impolite part out of the way first.
The “sex is impolite” thing… I think that’s a lot bigger than a lot of people give credit. I grew up in a non-denominational Christian house in the deep South. The only sex education I got was abstinence only, if you have sex with someone it’s basically the same as having sex with every person that person has ever had sex with. Your penis will fall off, her vagina will fall off, and you’ll have 37 babies.
Obviously, on an intellectual level, I’ve rejected all of that. Sex is fine and normal, having multiple partners throughout your life is normal. Your penis and her vagina will be fine, as long as you’re careful. No kids if you’re careful.
Despite this, for my entire life, sex has just been a thing that you don’t talk about. You don’t ask for. You’re not a friend if you want sex, you’re a pest. But also, you can’t want sex from someone you’ve just met, then you’re a creep and a pervert. You have to be their friend first, build a relationship and then you can want sex, but remember - you’re not a friend if you want sex, so you’re just living a lie to get sex. It’s a vicious catch 22. One of the biggest driving factors in all animals - sex - and we’ve moralized it so that we both cannot seek it and must obtain it.
I’ve got a fair few female friends. Some of them I would not mind having a deeper relationship with. But there’s always the struggle. Am I just being nice to get with her? Well, I can’t do that - I’d feel like a horrible person. So let’s just be friends and ignore the feelings for too long. Let’s let her believe we’re just friends, nothing more, until I can’t ignore it, confess feelings, and - shocker - that’s not a recipe for a relationship.
We’re all products of our environment. I can recognize a lot of the factors that have led me to having the mentality that I do. Unfortunately, the environments for so many of us are just not good ones. It feels like every major force in our lives is pushing us towards isolation. The problem isn’t men, isn’t women, it’s all just fucked. The whole thing needs an overhaul.
Thanks for this because it is exactly what I’m talking about. I wasn’t raised in a Christian house, but anything that was even vaguely titillating was considered obscene. When your mom angrily throws out a Victoria’s Secret catalog calling it “disgusting” how are you supposed to feel about liking the pictures?
If someone thinks their physical attraction is disgusting, perverse, or annoying how are they supposed to negotiate a relationship?
And unfortunately, one of the only places that are consistently telling young men they AREN’T disgusting, perverse and annoying is the same place that actively makes men into annoying, perverse, disgusting people. For a lot of young men, the only consistent positive reinforcement they receive is from Tate et al. The only ones teaching men (poorly, but still) how to navigate these interpersonal relationships are the ones turning them into pests.
None of this is the individual woman’s fault. None of this is the individual man’s fault. It’s a societal failing, and the only way we’re going to fix it is as a society. Men’s problems are women’s problems, and women’s problems are men’s problems. We all shape the world we share, and we all have a duty to shape it into a better one, for everyone.
How about not thinking that since you are no longer a child listening to your mother?
But that’s all on YOU. I have more women friends that guy friends, and women talk about sex a lot. More so than guys in my experience.
Dude, you’re an adult. Doesn’t matter how you were raised, you are obviously smart enough to unprogram yourself from your upbringing.
A little empathy goes a long way, friend. Obviously I have personal responsibility. My post was not an attempt to eschew responsibility, but to tell my story.
A lot of people are in similar situations. I AM lucky enough to be smart and able to pull myself out of that kind of upbringing. Here’s the kicker - a LOT of people aren’t. Or are in even worse situations. Understanding where people are coming from and the unique challenges they’ve experienced, that shale who they are - that’s the only way we’re going to change anything societally.