See, that’s the sticky point that people keep trying to ignore in favour of screaming BIGOT as loudly as they can every time someone raises concerns about it.
the number of transitioned people who were harmed by the process is significantly less than the people who feel it improved their life significantly.
there are failures across all medical procedures, you don’t see people denying appendectomies to people because a few people died?
get over yourself and let people live their best life
We’re talking about kids here. Kids brains aren’t fully developed yet. That’s why we don’t let them drive, drink, smoke, or consent to sex. If they want a sex change, just let them do it when they become an adult
No, it doesn’t. With exception to extreme outlier situations (where generally the youngest such an operation can be done is at 15), gender assignment surgeries are not being done on minors.
Do you realize you’re on the Internet? You can use the Internet to look up if things are true or not. Like how what you’re insisting is true actually isn’t.
Have any decent sources on that regret or harm done that aren’t debunked by myriad other reputable sources? Scientists research all kinds of unpopular things, so it should be easy to show.
At risk of getting myself banned (I guess a litmus test for myself to see how zealous the mods are here), one of the pioneering studies done in the field ended in suicide.
The thing is, this story you mention isn’t a situation of trans health care; this is a situation of actual child abuse. The parents literally forced a gender identity onto their child who seems to have otherwise been cisgender. It’s not all that different from what conservative parents will often do with their actual trans children.
If anything, this story shows the harms that come by denying gender-affirming care to children. That child was not a girl, and denying him of his identity caused irreparable damage. All because the parents were too scared to tell their child that the doctor fucked up the circumcision.
Unfortunately, right out of the gate you were complaining about people labelling folks as bigots, claim that arguments against trans care are being censored and then fail to provide evidence for why we should ban trans health care. This makes it really difficult to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re arguing in good faith out of concern for children’s wellbeing.
The sad reality is that many people arguing against trans care are in fact bigots and trans issues have been turned into a political football to the detriment of all trans people including children. If you have real concerns about children’s well being and want to be taken seriously, you need to state plainly what your key concerns are and allow space for being wrong. Otherwise, because of the nature of discussion around this issue in the public sphere, people may assume that you’re bigoted against trans people, rightly or wrongly.
Maybe it’s a good time to ask yourself why you find these arguments that you’ve been bringing up convincing specifically for the issue of trans health care.
If you are concerned with the welfare of children, surely the most sensible thing is to allow doctors to be in charge of their healthcare rather than banning things and reducing the options doctors have for taking care of them.
Are you suggesting that there’s an epidemic of undiagnosed MSP and that it’s the cause of trans children existing? Because if so, you’re probably gonna need to venture past Page 1 of your Google searches to break that one down for us.
This is not a pioneering study done in the field, jfc. This isn’t a transgender story, this is a story of abuse. Did you read the article? Did you do any research into this at all? Did you at least read his biography? Because I have. To summarize: David was born a cisgendered man whose doctors botched his circumcision so badly he needed reconstructive surgery. His parents consulted a sexologist they saw on TV (the now disgraced John Money), and he convinced the parents to give David a sex change. Not for David’s benefit mind you, but because the sexologist wanted to make a name for himself based on his theories on gender being easily malleable (and he briefly did, until the truth came out). A lot of gross messed up stuff happened, like the sexologist would make David roleplay sex with his twin brother I shit you not. He would make them watch hetero porn with him. And then he would make them get into sexual positions and make them playact sex together. He also took photos (and I think video) of these two children simulating sex.
So to summarize real quick, the pedo-sexologist who committed acts of psychological, medical and sexual abuse on these children, is your “pioneering study” guy. Let me guess, you thought that John Money was a success and that he proved his theory that gender identity is easily manipulated? I’ve seen this exact anti-trans disinformation twist before, along with thinking David was trans (he wasn’t) and pointing out David’s “trans suicide”. You should be more suspicious of your sources for information. By the 90s we already knew John Moneys work with David was useless. And the disinfo machine loves to leave out a very important fact: Davids brother Brian killed himself two years before David took his own life. I guess the suicide of the depressed cisgendered brother who never transitioned muddies the trans-suicide agenda being pushed.
Whenever I see his story pop up, the terfs (and the unfortunately misinformed) end up erroneously thinking this is a story of a trans kid who killed themself. Disinfo will say this story proves that you can manipulate someone into believing they’re a different gender then they know themselves to be. And look! Disinfo swears theres reputable science papers by John Money to back this up! ha.
David was a straight, cisgendered man. His story is not a transgender story. It’s many other things; a story of child abuse, medical abuse, psychological abuse and sexual abuse. It’s the a story of a cisgendered person experiencing gender dysphoria and not understanding why. To me, what his story really shows us is that a persons personal sense of gender is an innate and pervasive thing; a complex combination of mind and body that persists; no matter how much abuse you throw at it. Because even though David was raised to believe he was a woman; had his role as a woman constantly being reinforced by his entire world, had everyone in his life telling him he was a woman, he still knew he was a man and deeply struggled to understand why he felt that way.
An experiment was performed on an unknowing child by raising him as a girl, following his botched circumcision, with disastrous results.
How is this relevant to the issue of transgender health care? Sounds like a pretty good study of why infant circumcision is bad but it doesn’t seem like an example of trans health care causing harm.
there are plenty of articles about regrets and resources about detransition, those who get shouted down usually try to use ridiculously low regret rates as reasoning to limit access to healthcare. marriage has a 43% regret rate, why isn’t your energy spent there instead?
No one is ignoring it. The problem is that the bigots who are rightfully called bigots think they’re doctors and that people should listen to their medical advice rather than their doctor’s medical advice.
I assume you don’t have a medical degree, but please correct me on that.
I really hate trans health care. It’s just health care. If they ain’t hurting anyone, leave them alone. Jesus.
We don’t trust people under 21 with alcohol that affects them for a few hours. Letting kids make life altering decisions is irresponsible.
Yeah, but I trust their doctors and their recommendations.
You are right we don’t trust kids. That is why doctors are involved.
See, that’s the sticky point that people keep trying to ignore in favour of screaming BIGOT as loudly as they can every time someone raises concerns about it.
Wut?
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the number of transitioned people who were harmed by the process is significantly less than the people who feel it improved their life significantly. there are failures across all medical procedures, you don’t see people denying appendectomies to people because a few people died? get over yourself and let people live their best life
We’re talking about kids here. Kids brains aren’t fully developed yet. That’s why we don’t let them drive, drink, smoke, or consent to sex. If they want a sex change, just let them do it when they become an adult
That’s already how it works. You’re angry at a thing that doesn’t exist and that nobody is suggesting.
I’m not angry at all and it does exist
No, it doesn’t. With exception to extreme outlier situations (where generally the youngest such an operation can be done is at 15), gender assignment surgeries are not being done on minors.
Do you realize you’re on the Internet? You can use the Internet to look up if things are true or not. Like how what you’re insisting is true actually isn’t.
https://www.factcheck.org/2023/05/scicheck-young-children-do-not-receive-medical-gender-transition-treatment/
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/what-medical-treatments-do-transgender-youth-get
Yes, that’s correct. They need puberty blockers, so they can make the decision when their old enough instead of having that decision forced upon them.
This regurgitated propaganda brought to you by the same minds who fabricated “partial birth abortions”.
You were never a teenager, were you?
What kind of question is that?
Well, that’s because they’re generally blatantly lying about it.
Have any decent sources on that regret or harm done that aren’t debunked by myriad other reputable sources? Scientists research all kinds of unpopular things, so it should be easy to show.
I’ve seen plenty of them get interviewed. Anyone saying they don’t exist just aren’t being honest with you
At risk of getting myself banned (I guess a litmus test for myself to see how zealous the mods are here), one of the pioneering studies done in the field ended in suicide.
The thing is, this story you mention isn’t a situation of trans health care; this is a situation of actual child abuse. The parents literally forced a gender identity onto their child who seems to have otherwise been cisgender. It’s not all that different from what conservative parents will often do with their actual trans children.
If anything, this story shows the harms that come by denying gender-affirming care to children. That child was not a girl, and denying him of his identity caused irreparable damage. All because the parents were too scared to tell their child that the doctor fucked up the circumcision.
Removed by mod
Unfortunately, right out of the gate you were complaining about people labelling folks as bigots, claim that arguments against trans care are being censored and then fail to provide evidence for why we should ban trans health care. This makes it really difficult to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re arguing in good faith out of concern for children’s wellbeing.
The sad reality is that many people arguing against trans care are in fact bigots and trans issues have been turned into a political football to the detriment of all trans people including children. If you have real concerns about children’s well being and want to be taken seriously, you need to state plainly what your key concerns are and allow space for being wrong. Otherwise, because of the nature of discussion around this issue in the public sphere, people may assume that you’re bigoted against trans people, rightly or wrongly.
Maybe it’s a good time to ask yourself why you find these arguments that you’ve been bringing up convincing specifically for the issue of trans health care.
If you are concerned with the welfare of children, surely the most sensible thing is to allow doctors to be in charge of their healthcare rather than banning things and reducing the options doctors have for taking care of them.
Are you suggesting that there’s an epidemic of undiagnosed MSP and that it’s the cause of trans children existing? Because if so, you’re probably gonna need to venture past Page 1 of your Google searches to break that one down for us.
This is not a pioneering study done in the field, jfc. This isn’t a transgender story, this is a story of abuse. Did you read the article? Did you do any research into this at all? Did you at least read his biography? Because I have. To summarize: David was born a cisgendered man whose doctors botched his circumcision so badly he needed reconstructive surgery. His parents consulted a sexologist they saw on TV (the now disgraced John Money), and he convinced the parents to give David a sex change. Not for David’s benefit mind you, but because the sexologist wanted to make a name for himself based on his theories on gender being easily malleable (and he briefly did, until the truth came out). A lot of gross messed up stuff happened, like the sexologist would make David roleplay sex with his twin brother I shit you not. He would make them watch hetero porn with him. And then he would make them get into sexual positions and make them playact sex together. He also took photos (and I think video) of these two children simulating sex.
So to summarize real quick, the pedo-sexologist who committed acts of psychological, medical and sexual abuse on these children, is your “pioneering study” guy. Let me guess, you thought that John Money was a success and that he proved his theory that gender identity is easily manipulated? I’ve seen this exact anti-trans disinformation twist before, along with thinking David was trans (he wasn’t) and pointing out David’s “trans suicide”. You should be more suspicious of your sources for information. By the 90s we already knew John Moneys work with David was useless. And the disinfo machine loves to leave out a very important fact: Davids brother Brian killed himself two years before David took his own life. I guess the suicide of the depressed cisgendered brother who never transitioned muddies the trans-suicide agenda being pushed.
Whenever I see his story pop up, the terfs (and the unfortunately misinformed) end up erroneously thinking this is a story of a trans kid who killed themself. Disinfo will say this story proves that you can manipulate someone into believing they’re a different gender then they know themselves to be. And look! Disinfo swears theres reputable science papers by John Money to back this up! ha.
David was a straight, cisgendered man. His story is not a transgender story. It’s many other things; a story of child abuse, medical abuse, psychological abuse and sexual abuse. It’s the a story of a cisgendered person experiencing gender dysphoria and not understanding why. To me, what his story really shows us is that a persons personal sense of gender is an innate and pervasive thing; a complex combination of mind and body that persists; no matter how much abuse you throw at it. Because even though David was raised to believe he was a woman; had his role as a woman constantly being reinforced by his entire world, had everyone in his life telling him he was a woman, he still knew he was a man and deeply struggled to understand why he felt that way.
further reading/citations:
the 1997 medical paper & review of Moneys work that, along with Davids testimony, began to shed light on this: http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1997-sex-reassignment.html
Davids biography: As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised As A Girl by John Colapinto
a more detailed and damning article from 2017: https://embryo.asu.edu/pages/david-reimer-and-john-money-gender-reassignment-controversy-johnjoan-case
a very disturbing amount of detail of what happened for those that can handle it: https://www.simplypsychology.org/david-reimer.html
and finally wikipedia for those that hate fancy links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money#Sex_reassignment_of_David_Reimer
How is this relevant to the issue of transgender health care? Sounds like a pretty good study of why infant circumcision is bad but it doesn’t seem like an example of trans health care causing harm.
there are plenty of articles about regrets and resources about detransition, those who get shouted down usually try to use ridiculously low regret rates as reasoning to limit access to healthcare. marriage has a 43% regret rate, why isn’t your energy spent there instead?
No one is ignoring it. The problem is that the bigots who are rightfully called bigots think they’re doctors and that people should listen to their medical advice rather than their doctor’s medical advice.
I assume you don’t have a medical degree, but please correct me on that.