I was thinking about using graphene OS, but I’ve read some lemmy users dislike this OS due to perceived misleading advertising and the pixel 7a you’re supposed to install graphene on because it’s from google (an advertising company).
Another option would be lineage OS, but there is so much false information about this OS, namely compatible phones that simply don’t work with this OS and no support.
what works for you? I want a phone with no google, that doesn’t force me to use the manufacturer’s ecosystem and that won’t show the apps I don’t want or need (on an asus I own you cannot neither get rid nor hide bloatware)
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GrapheneOS is probably the best option out there.
As you said, it’s only for Pixels currently, because
- They are more secure than most other phones. They have some kind of chip built in that makes them superior. I don’t know the specifics, but other commentators might add some information if needed. Something with encryption if I remember correctly. The GrapheneOS team is a bit …picky… when it comes to security, and most other phones don’t reach their requirements for a secure device.
- Google is one major contributor to Android, and their phones are fine tuned to work perfectly with it. Other manufacturers’ phones feel less polished.
- It’s easier to maintain one line of devices that are very similar, instead of keeping hundred phones up to date and secure. Pixels are similar to iPhones, they get updated almost simultaneously and are similar. If you now add a phone from a different line, e.g. a Fairphone or Nothing Phone, things get more complicated. If you look at Calyx (more onto that later), the FP4 caused quite some headaches for the dev team.
Pixels are cheap(ish) for what you get, and I believe Google makes them so cheap because 99% of users don’t care which ROM/OS is installed. Those are the advertisment-cows that will get milked. If you buy a Pixel and install a custom ROM on it, they will loose money.
My experience with GrapheneOS has been great. My Pixel 5 hit EOL a while ago and still gets maintenance updates almost weekly.
Many security additions are overkill for me, but quite some make a lot of sense.I used CalyxOS for a year too, but now that I don’t get full updates anymore, I don’t feel safe anymore with it.
I think GrapheneOS is technically superior to Calyx, especially due to the sandboxing they do. MicroG has full root privileges and can do with your phone what it wants, while also breaking some apps due to missing dependencies. If you choose to enable Play Services on GrapheneOS, they are user level and heavily restricted, and only you decide how much access you want to give them.
Regarding Calyx, since they don’t limit themselves as much in terms of security, they also offer a ROM for the Fairphone. Maybe check that out too.
DivestOS also seems to be a good option. AFAIK it’s based on LineageOS and supports a lot of devices, while being more secure than LOS.
Regarding Linux phones, I don’t have any experience with them. I tried Phosh (Mobile Gnome) on an exhibition a while ago, and it felt great and interesting, but from what I’ve heard, they are nowhere as good as Android.
My personal ranking:
- GrapheneOS on a Pixel. Get an used/ refurbished device if you don’t want to support Google. Best price-performance ratio, great OS, and very good hardware (battery life, camera, etc.)
- CalyxOS on a Fairphobe. Modular device with good repairability. Nowhere near as good in terms of what you’ll get for your money. Better security than 95% of other phone ROMs, oh, and you can just swap your battery in seconds if you want that :D
- DivestOS on a random supported phone, e.g. a China device. Nowhere near as sustainable (short lived update support, no spare parts, etc.)
- Linux phone. Only a good option for a tinkering device right now imo.
Great synopsis!
The cool thing about GrapheneOS: It provides basically all the comforts and usability as any Android (stock) ROM minus some compatibility issues with a portion of Google Apps and services (Google Pay doesn’t and probably will never work, for example) while providing state-of-the-art security and privacy if you choose to utilize those features. A modern Pixel with up-to-date GrapheneOS, configured the right way, is literally the most secure and private smartphone you can get today.
Same here, I have an old Pixel 4a that still gets security updates from GrapheneOS. Banking apps and Amazon don’t seem to like it, but I don’t mind just doing those on my laptop anyway.
Banking apps and Amazon don’t seem to like it
Try going into the app’s settings and toggle Exploit protection compatibility mode. That let me use my banking apps that didn’t work before.
That worked for banking, thanks!
The pixel 4a is end-of-life. I recommend switching to something newer.
Android is so secure, I guess 60% of users use insecure EOL devices.
They will get Pegasus, okay. But only if they are targeted.
Oh yeah I know. It’s just one of those money/time things I’ll get around to eventually.
- Linux phone. Only a goof option for a tinkering device right now imo.
Honestly not sure if you mean “good” or actually meant “goof” there lol
Typo, sorry. Corrected. Thanks for letting me know.
DivestOS also has longer somewhat-support for Pixels. But GrapheneOS still ships some updates to my 4a so not sure about that
Also, as for reasoning for choosing a Pixel, Pixels are not really a product for Google but rather a device for Google employees to test things on but as a consequence can be sold as well. This makes them perfect for hacking
I use LineageOS because my phone is not a Pixel and it works fine for me. If you don’t want to pay Google for a Pixel, buy a used one. Other than that LOS is fine. It doesn’t have anonymization features like /e/OS or something like that but it doesn’t force nor promote any apps or ecosystems (except for Seedvault but it’s not a big deal) and it is FOSS
I have a Pixel and LineageOS is the best by far. Freedom to root, which I absolutely want… I want full control over my devices. I’m extremely picky about how every little thing runs and works in my phone and I can only get it with root. You can’t get root with GraphenOS without a huge pain in the ass with updates.
It’s hilarious people install GrapheneOS and think they are better off because Google services are installed as user apps instead of system. You lose as soon as you install them either way. They are getting the data they are after no matter if it’s installed as a user app or system app.
But anyway, I’ve been running LineagOS since it used to be Cynogenmod over 10 years ago. It’s the most established and reliable while remaining open to customization by far.
Unfortunately 90% of privacy-conscious people can’t live without Google services because Google Meet, banking apps and other Play Integrity needing stuff
That’s literally what MicroG is for, though. Spoof the Play store and GSF, no data in or out. I think a good part of that “90%” you mention knows about that solution?
But that’s what GrapheneOS uses afaik. The person I replied to said that LineageOS (a fully vanilla ROM) with root (which breaks banking apps) is a better solution. I agree but I added that the mentioned solution is really not for most people.
I don’t imagine that many privacy-conscious people are using Google Meet!
Trust me a lot of them do if it’s a requirement in their school or at work
Surely you wouldn’t have to use it on your phone then, just on a desktop browser?
What?
Why would school or work require you to specifically use Google meet on the phone app? Surely you’d use a school computer or your work-provided laptop, never needing to have play services on your personal device.
I’m using /e/ os for more than 3 years on different devices (with some customizations) and it works like a charm. An important aspect is that you can install e on any phone that has the bootloader unlock and supports GSIs - theoreticaly any device that runs Android > 9
/e/ has a gsi image which is neat!
I don’t use nor promote any banking apps or other G**gle/proprietary dependendent apps.
Why nobody talks more about e.foundation /e/ OS?
Enlighten me please 🙂
+1 for /e/OS! Brilliant combo of user friendliness with open source and privacy
why do you mention banking apps ? are they particularly difficult to run ?
Banking (and some digital ID) apps are notoriously difficult to run on degoogled custom ROMs because they will often check for Google services and bootloader lock/root status at startup. I’ve jumped through so many hoops to hide root, spoof GSF etc. In the end I resorted to just using my bank’s website…
You’re lucky to use the website… All my banking apps need the app to login to their website. I open the app, it crashes and complains about not being a reliable system. Tried magisk and all those modules…only one of them works after all the hoops.
Yeah that’s unbelievable, I had the same experience! You must never install your bank app, otherwise it will start always requiring it.
thanks for the info
I confirm too that banking apps on /e/ is a bit of a nightmare. But I used /e/ for 3 years or so and was very happy until I moved to GrapheneOS.
Banking apps work on Graphene ? it’s good to know because that would be a dealbreaker for me
oh that’s neat thanks for the link !!
So long as the browser login still works 🤷♂️
my online payments need to go through the Banxo app unfortunately
yes, most will not work as they relay on G**gle ecosystem…
I had no idea !
I would love to try /e/, but for some reason there is no support for the Sony Xperia 1 iii.
In fact, LineageOS is my only option, and after a bunch of time spent learning how to set it up and tweaking it to meet my needs, it’s mostly fantastic. My biggest complaints are missing camera features and no easy way to do OS updates while maintaining root.
If anyone knows of a way to automate the process of regaining root after updates, please tell me!
Are you using Magisk?
Yes
Doesn’t Magisk have a built-in superuser?
Magisk requires patching the boot image to gain root. The i believe the boot img gets overwritten during an OS update, and so each time it needs to be repatched. I’m not knowledgable enough to automate patching the boot image automatically after an OS update.
Any chance to use Whatsapp on /e/ ?
You can, but the question is why would you contribute to their data collection? Try: signal.org
I use Signal, but I’m unable to force everybody to do the same.
Not need to force anyone to use anything mate!
Here is my personal example: I made my choices a long time ago…
I ditched ANY:
- M$ related product/service;
- ALL Meta (as in Wazaaap);
- closed source apps;
- i have 0 IoTs around my ass, but a nice computer infrastructure built in more than a few decades;
- no friends around with i Phones …
AND still I need to do so much about privacy and my life in general and I continue to learn & apply as much as I can…
Also, I kindly invited and explained others why I choose to ditch products/software/companies/people that do not respect Humans in general and consider all of as as being just dumb “assets”…
Indeed it feels lonely sometimes, but i prefer the silence rather than noise/propaganda/parotting/or really any kind of bullshit.
Peace!
There isn’t any Foss phone. Graphene os and everything else requires proprietary software for the modem to operate at a minimum.
If you are ok with some proprietary software go with Lineage OS.
For devices that support Lineage OS go here: https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/
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Its better to have less proprietary which is why LineageOS is better.
I use Calyx on a Fairphone 4. It’s not totally degooglified, since it comes with MicroG which is used to connect to Google services. I use Aurora Store and a couple of original Google Apps like Gboard too (none of my Google apps can access the internet, since they’re behind the built-in firewall). It works well except call functionality which can be wonky and there’s the issue that a lot of apps from Play don’t work well with MicroG. I only use a small selection of Play apps though, so it doesn’t bother me too much.
What about banking appss?
I was about to answer this, but decided I didn’t want that information in public.
However, the bank I use, which is a largish one, has an app that I’ve installed with the aurora store without microg or google play services on divestos and it complains that it won’t work without gsf, but it works fine after clicking ok.
Depends on the bank’s app. I have CRDroid (LineageOS fork I think) and my local bank apps have either full support or no support for biometrics (everything else works).
My banking apps work fine on Calyx.
Banking apps normally check for rooted phones as the thing they don’t like. Because pixels come with an unlocked bootloader, you don’t need to root the phone to install a custom ROM, and so banking apps are still okay.
Calyx comes with microg right?
Yes
This is what stops me from leaping to phone Foss.
I never bothered with banking apps. (Outside of the virtual debit card app from my bank. That one did install successfully. However, I never got try out in store because it deleted my virtual card after a few days and I didn’t care enough to set it up again.)
I’ve used Lineage on multiple devices, Calyx, and Graphene. Graphene by far has the least issues (basically none), and the best compatibility in my experiences. Being able to relock the boot loader is perfect for a mobile device too.
Calyxos user here. I like it so far. Half a year into it. I can live with microg instead of gms. And it also works on moto g32, 42 and 52 so you don’t need Google hardware.
GrapheneOS is perfect. Pixel phones are Google hardware yes, but works like a dream once GOS is installed. NO MORE GOOGLE !!! Frequent OS updates, love it
I loved it too until I forgot my wallet one day. It’s the one thing I had to go back to stock Android for because I forget everything but my phone constantly.
Low-tech solution: keep your bank card in your phone case
You can’t pay with the phone with GrapheneOS?
No, Google Wallet doesn’t pass the security check.
Which is weird because I thought Graphene can pass attestation. I can pass it and use Wallet with Magisk on an unlocked bootloader, not sure what’s preventing on Graphene.
I’m afraid not. You can have Google Wallet installed but you can’t have bank cards on it on GrapheneOS.
Edit: this link for more context
Ty. Saving others some time:
Contactless payments work fine on GrapheneOS. It’s not like there’s something fundamentally incompatible about them. It just so happens that the most prevalent implementation (Gpay) requires a Google certified OS. The options right now are as follows:
People find alternatives (such as their bank) which provide this without using Gpay and don’t require a certified OS themselves.
This is implemented, which would at least temporarily allow people to use apps that require a certified OS on GrapheneOS: https://github.com/GrapheneOS/os-issue-tracker/issues/1986
Apps currently requiring a Google certified OS whitelist it as per https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-guide (though it is of course very unlikely that Google themselves would do this)
But:
Barclays in the UK is only one example of contactless payments working without Google Pay, there are other banks in France for example for which we’ve had reports of similar contactless payment systems working. They exist; though I’m under no illusions that they’re prevalent, since I imagine from their POV, implementing Google Pay is much easier and maintainable.
On the spoofing CTS checks thing, I did not mean to insinuate that you or some other user would be the one to implement this. When I said “an option is for this to be implemented”, I meant the development team adding it to GrapheneOS. The issue is currently open and was opened by someone on the development team, so it’s not a feature that the team has ruled out. As with everything on GrapheneOS, though, the best way to approach it has to be determined, which can take time.
On your 3rd point, lobbying Google to whitelist GrapheneOS by using that guide is realistically never going to happen. Other OEMs that have to go through certification and pass CTS (compatibility test suite) which GrapheneOS doesn’t (because it adds things like new permissions which deviate from the compatibility goals that Android has set) would be outraged if that ever happened. In fact, I would wager that it would be a much more realistic scenario for someone to invest millions into funding a company that provides an alternative to Google Pay without puttng it behind a CTS check, rather than Google ever whitelisting GrapheneOS.
When someone says “contactless payments don’t work on GrapheneOS”, it’s not immediately clear to everyone that what is meant by that is “there aren’t good options for people to use right now” and I wouldn’t want someone to think that contactless payments are fundamentally incompatible with GrapheneOS, or that it breaks them somehow. Contactless payments via Gpay on GrapheneOS don’t work as of right now for the exact same reason why the McDonalds app in some countries (I kid you not) doesn’t. SafetyNet / Play Integrity API and their ctsProfileMatch and MEETS_DEVICE_INTEGRITY checks accordingly.
Didn’t know about Barclays! Thank you for educating me.
I’ve read some lemmy users dislike this OS due to perceived misleading advertising and the pixel 7a you’re supposed to install graphene on because it’s from google
There is no misleading advertisement. Go with Graphene if you own a Pixel (from Pixel 5 up) or you can find a cheap second-hand one.
there is so much false information about this OS, namely compatible phones that simply don’t work
Care to share which devices are you talking about? If a device is officially supported by the latest LineageOS version, it works.
I’ve had calyxOS on this phone now for about 2 uears now. Its pretty good. It comes with microG to simulate the google apis.
Using GrapheneOS on a pixel 8 pro bought for this. Never used the stock OS. Coming from iOS it is a breeze of fresh air to feel “private”. I tried lineage some times ago but it isn’t as polished as graphene, and it feels like a classic android OS, I didn’t feel " private".
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My dear friend, can you elaborate ?
Calyx. It just works. I’ve honestly just used it like stock Android, using as many private apps as possible. It’s so fun seeing all the cool little projects not on iOS! I just recently discovered Petals, which helps with measuring THC intake.
GrapheneOS is fundamentally better, if CalyxOS didnt fix up their mess in the past months.
I also use calyx but I’ll agree that graphene is technologically superior of the two. I’m more comfortable with the idea of using MicroG as opposed to sandboxes google play but that’s not to slant the implementation in any way.
I also avoid sandboxed play like hell.
But note
- microG downloads official Google binaries. It is not some magical reverse engineered bundle. It is a reimplementation
- microG has privileged access to the system, and thus gives Google privileged access
- apps needing Google Play often include the binaries themselves and dont even rely on an “adapter”
- GrapheneOS sandboxed play has the same access as the apps, not more, not less
Sandboxed Play is better for privacy and may prevent a Pegasus/malware vector.
DivestOS has sandboxed microG but I didnt try it. Also note that microG could break any time and the Google binaries may be outdated.
Privileged android apps are a huge attack surface as so many devices have them. So outdated privileged microG binaries may be a target.
Re-implementation means reverse-engineering and building new binaries. What’s the point of MicroG if it is just downloading google binaries? An app with privileged access is different than a remote access trojan. The whole point of a sandbox is not to have the same access as the original app.
What you are saying doesn’t make any sense.
Strong words here.
I couldnt find what is the correct definition of “reimplementation” but we can assume it either means “taking the binaries and bundling them in a different bundle” or “writing different code to do the same thing”.
The whole point of a sandbox
What sandbox? Not the Android app sandbox, as microG (when I used it) needed to be installed as system app i.e. flashed to the system partition.
microG may isolate the binaries or whatever code it runs in some way, but not via the Android App sandbox.
Now GrapheneOS uses a privileged app that channels the calls of the unprivileged to the OS. This is also possible for microG, so it can run unprivileged too. DivestOS does that.
The concept of signature spoofing and more is poorly pretty flawed.
I would really like if a fully open source rewrite of the core services could just work, but these apps are written for Google, contain the official proprietary code anyways, and signature spoofing only works if you dont use many hardware security features.
GrapheneOS can be extremely secure when degoogled, but it cannot securely fake to be a Google Android. And neither can microG Android.
You would need to change the apps to do that.
I appreciate the info. For my own learning, could you provide a link to some context around the types of official binaries leveraged by microG? The only firm info I have of its behaviour is that it will pseudonomise as much user information as possible.
I’m familiar with sandboxed google play on grapheneOS and have used it in the past.
No I dont know what they download. It should be in the scripts in their repo.
But they dont document that at all, instead giving the impression that it would be reverse engineered and open source.
I appreciate that you’re trying to inform me but if you make such a claim, you should be able to prove it.
A friend was able to provide some context, regardless:
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The one binary I’m aware of microG downloading (assuming it still does) is the SafetyNet “DroidGuard” thing, which it only does if you explicitly enable SafetyNet, which is not on by default. There is no other way to provide it.
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microG only has privileged access if you install it as a privileged app, which is up to you / your distribution, as microG works fine as a user app (provided signature spoofing is available to it). Also, being privileged itself really doesn’t mean giving privileges to “Google”.
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Apps needing Google services may indeed contain all sorts of binaries, generally including Google ones, which doesn’t mean they contain Google services themselves. Anyway, they are proprietary apps and as such will certainly contain proprietary things, and it’s all to you to install them or not. It’s not like microG includes them.
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Its also just a reimplementation of a small handful of useful Google services, such as push notifications, or the maps (not the spyware stuff like advertising) and each can be toggled on/off.
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Also all apps on android are sandboxed
Also, SafetyNet is deprecated, and Google has said that app developers shouldn’t use it for a long time before that, so I’ve never had to use it. My experience of a blob-free microG has been really good, and I trust FOSS code a hell of a lot more than sandboxed proprietary code, because I can’t be sure what it does with the data I inevitably do provide it.
MicroG has also been very clear IMO about SafetyNet not being a reimplementation, but rather a sandbox when it was relevant.
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I’ve been using Graphene since the pixel 4a, have never considered going back. It works wonderfully.
Not sure why GrapheneOS is getting down voted so much here, did I miss something recent that happened?
I’ve been using GrapheneOS on my Pixel 6a for around 2 years and really like it.
If I couldn’t use GOS though, I would probably go with DivestOS. I haven’t looked deep into other alternative Android ROMs.
I use phones that are at least 5 year old and cost 100€ max. Graphene supports only new pixel phones, so I never got to use it. I put LineageOS with MicroG on every phone and I’m super happy with it.
Fair point, Pixels aren’t flagship expensive, but they definitely aren’t cheap either.
The reason why GrapheneOS is hated here is because one single user who spreads constantly misinfo about the project.
Used pixels are surprisingly cheap for how well they hold up over time, and graphene works well.
I totally agree. Used pixels are superb with grapheneos. Syncthing is what i use ad a backup. I think the problemi is that google stops releasing updates after 5 yearss old units don’t get updates I think. I have the 5th June build and it reports a security update of December 2023.
If you don’t live in the EU. Here you get a better new phone from xiaomi/motorola/oneplus than a pixel for the same price. Yes, I get grapheneos and relockable bootloader, but used things are too expensive here. If you need a cheap phone, buy a cheap phone (fuck EU’s import regulations).
I don’t know what you are on about, but if brand-new Pixels are too expensive for you (although their price is uniformed to the US one), you can easily find them second-hand.
For example at a time where my Pixel 7 was available for 500$ (466€) in the USA + 100$ trade in (93€) for my Galaxy S8 = 400$ = 373€ it still was 620€ in Austria on Amazon, the only way to buy it because Google did not offer it through their Google store here and normal stores didn’t go below 650€. I could’ve gotten 20€ trade in for my old phone = 600€. 60% more than in the USA at the same time.
Used market basically didn’t exist because Pixels generally were a bit overpriced
Doesn’t it seem that this problem is caused by Google not operating the markets in the same way?
Yes, but Persen’s point still stands.
(And Pixels also have way less features here, the only advantage they give is access to GrapheneOS, great camera and AI photo editing)
Which features do the lack?
US-only:
Call screening
Hold for me
Direct my call
Wait times
Call transcription
Answering calls with text to speech
Emergency calls on crash
English-only:
Speaker labels for Google recorder transcripts
Google recorder transcripts generally don’t work well in other languages, but at least the option to get a subpar transcript exists
Probably missed some
That’s the point. You can’t import anything to EU without paying a 20% import tax ±5€ depending on the import. This makes the used device market prices in EU inflated.
Why would you import used devices from the US in the first place? People sell them in Europe too.
Most of the market was from UK (where we all know what happened) plus taxing imports inflated the EU market.
Which generation would you recommend? As used.
I like the 7. IIRC, the 6 had reliability issues, and the 5 was only available in a smaller size.
I’ve been using a 6 since it’s release, it’s been solid for me. The 7 is slightly sleeker/smaller but they’re almost identical in performance.
7a would be the best balance between cod and expected support timeframe
Thanks.
I miss my pixel 5 :(
If you want updates, may be go for gen 6/7. 5a won’t be receiving updates after August 2024.
Thanks
