I’m mainly talking about these new “but they’re different” games, that have gotten so fucking popular, lately.
“Honky Stair Rail” and “Genshin Implants” or whatever the fuck they’re called.
I don’t care if you can play them without spending any money. I don’t care if they’re any good. None of that matters. The whole model of the game being funded by whales, spending money on in-game items and currency IS LITERALLY EVIL.
There is no way to do it ethically. That is an impossibility, on a fundamental level. There is no excuse for anyone to give these so-called developers and publishers ANY amount of money, attention, or engagement.
The only acceptable way to pay for a game as a service is a traditional MMO subscription, where you pay a flat rate per month/year to access 100 percent of a game’s available gameplay.
I don’t care what your excuse is. I don’t care that you like anime tits and ass. I don’t care if you think your chosen free-to-pay game is different. It’s not.
Stop supporting this shit. Support real games.
A couple of years ago, I would have considered this to be a popular opinion, but about 35-40 percent of the internet posts I see in 2024 are related to either “Honky Stair Rail” or “Genshin Implants,” and it’s starting to freak me the fuck out.
Is this an unpopular opinion?
As I said in the body of my post, it WAS a popular opinion. Not anymore. Much to my dismay.
My guy, you are the antithesis of your own username. If you wanna change minds you need to change your angle. Facts. Data. Not just “I’m right and you’re wrong, no I will not explain further.” All that’s gonna do is make people cling to their beliefs even stronger. So really, you’re making the problem worse without playing the games yourself. Congratulations.
I feel like this guy must have some mental health issues or a disorder, and they either haven’t been diagnosed or they aren’t being treated properly. He doesn’t seem like a troll because he’s putting way too much effort into it, but his behaviour’s way too strange for a mentally stable, neurotypical person.
You’re absolutely right. This screams autism to me as a ND person myself.
That was my initial thought as well. I’m not sure about my own neurotypicality since I haven’t started the process of diagnosis yet, but my partner has autism and I couldn’t help but see some similarities between her past behaviour and this guy’s current behaviour. I can only hope he gets the help he needs, if he does indeed need it.
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Nope. When you’re the correct one, you don’t have to say shit. That’s part of the privilege of being correct.
If this somehow bothers you, I would suggest that you stop being wrong.
There is a lot I could say about this, but I am afraid that you have tested positive for terminal stupidity. I’m afraid there is no cure.
My condolences.
The good news, your lack of awareness protects you from experiencing your condition, so go and live your life to the fullest. Express your views on forums and in rooms full of people avoiding eye contact and looking for chances to walk away. They all love you. You are the smartest.
So, how would I know you’re ‘being correct’?
Try going to any college class room and tell any professor “when you’re the correct one, you don’t have to say shit. That’s part of the privilege of being correct.” I’m not sure that will end well for you.
I do agree with you basic premise that there is a problem in the gaming industry though.
Honestly, you don’t sound old enough to have computer time, much less be on Lemmy, kiddo.
This thread is so fascinating. I agree with the OP 100% and it’s so strange to me to see the arguments against them.
Like, games as designed now are predatory. My kids get a game and are bombarded with shiny ways to extract more money.
OP’s point on MMOs is that they provide servers and that means a monthly subscription and the only way (originally) to get stuff was to grind.
To expand on that last point, the original MMO grind was also supposed to be fun and interesting, in and of itself. It wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea, but the original grind wasn’t a roadblock in the way of progress. It WAS the progress.
As someone else very eloquently pointed out, the problem with the new mobile-style model is that “the developers ARE REQUIRED TO INVALIDATE your progress in some way.”
That’s exactly the center of the point that I’m making. That shit isn’t fixable. There is no way for there to be a good or acceptable game that uses that model.
And I think that’s why I’ve bristled so much, when people are like “uhh, could you cite some examples?”
Like I said in that other comment: that’s like if I said “being hit in the hand with a sledgehammer causes injury” and people were like “hmmm, could you supply some evidence for this claim?”
Saying “fuck off” to that request isn’t ME being intellectually dishonest. It’s THEM being trollish for even asking some shit like that. It’s some Elon Musk level shit.
Mobile-style free-to-pay monetization models are simply harmful. Period. Exactly like a sledgehammer to the knuckles.
Some people might be legit masochists and like being whacked on the hands with hammers, but that doesn’t change the basic facts.
I agree. It is creating a real problem.
Out of curiosity would you include Guild Wars 2 into a good or bad system?
You pay for the game. You get the full game. When they bring out a expansion you pay for the expansion.
You can buy in game stuff but it’s cosmetic only (different skins for armor or weapons but no improved stats). You don’t need to buy anything. You can pay the full game. Just curious what your thoughts are on that type of game.
I have to admit that some of the pseudo-traditional MMO games actually do fall into a gray area. Especially if they’re part of a series that used to run on a fully traditional MMO model, but couldn’t be sustained any longer. It’s better for those specific games to be supported in a different way, rather than just die off.
It’s these “hey sailor, buy some currency…and/or a .png of an anime titty girl that you can use to fight other .png files of anime titty girls UNLESS YOU WANT TO GRIND FOREVER” abominations that are becoming normalized. And that’s just not cool.
EDIT: it’s especially not cool, because I see more and more traditional gamers who DEFINITELY KNOW BETTER deciding that “Honky Stair Rail” or “Genshin Implants” are somehow different and okay. Even though they really do know better than that.
As someone with an addictive personality, gw2 is just as bad as any other.
The existence of FOMO, the “gems” that are never sold in quantities to get the full value of your transaction, and the random loot boxes for mounts and fucking dyes of all things… Makes no difference if it’s “just cosmetic”. It’s an exploitative business model for people vulnerable to those techniques. It’s scummy as all hell. OP is right, there’s no ethical GAAS.
And the game definitely suffers for the simple fact that the gemstore takes priority over it.
Gaas?
I assume it’s Gaming As A Service.
I assume because SAAS is software as a service.
Yeah, this is what I meant.
OP spent their wages on Genshin and is pissed.
Dude you’re like a decade late and in the wrong economic system. This is just capitalism at work. There is no ethical consumption here, and pretty much everyone stuck with it either doesn’t realize it or they’ve accepted it and moved on. Gaming is just a drop in the bucket - look at everything we buy. Everything is a subscription. You own nothing, its all licensed. Every business is implementing predatory anti consumer practices. All tech has planned obsolescence built in. Its all designed so we cant repair it, and need to buy the new thing. Every service is full of extra fees for services that should have been included. Fuck, go buy a car with heated seats and even that is a subscription now. It’s everywhere, and we’re too late.
Giving up and accepting things as they are: it’s the new, cool, VERY EASY form of activism!
So what’s your plan then? Shouting about it doesn’t do much, people have been bitching about this since the 80’s, probably longer.
This. There are too many blind sheeple in the world. I have lost all hope.
Well, I’m raising awareness that it’s a more acute problem than some people might have realized.
Some people in this thread have already made it clear that they didn’t realize how far this new breed of “we’re better than the other anime gacha apps” games have penetrated, into the market.
Your proposed solution is to <checks your post> gleefully do literally nothing.
So, ya know, I’m still doing better than you. Seethe and cope with that.
Seethe? If I sound angry you’ve misinterpreted my tone. This is more like apathetic resignation in the face of some facts. You’re informing a niche audience while the majority of consumers supporting the thing you’re against aren’t here and couldn’t give a fuck. If you actually intend to put a stop to this you’re gonna need a bigger more motivated audience.
Its like the naivety I would see on reddit when they would slap “dont preorder” posts everywhere. It doesn’t do shit in an echo chamber, the people doing most of the preordering weren’t actively visiting gaming subreddits.
You like to make a lot of assumptions too. I’m actually with you in a sense - I’ve never paid for an MTX in any game, ever. Cell phone games I’ve tried are a disappointing waste. I used to be you, trying to inform people, but the average person just does not give a fuck. Ive been telling people to ditch Facebook for 15 years. Told them to get rid of google for the past decade. Tried to get them to ditch purchases of licenses that prevent actual ownership of goods. Its like trying to sweep the ocean back from the coast. Like, good luck, I truly hope you succeed, but the reality is a little too obvious.
I can assure you that with your tone here, you are turning more people away from your cause than you’re converting.
Perhaps some introspection, before making new posts. Possibly go check how to converse with people in a polite way. God damn.
When did “cope and seethe” stop being used by edgy chan kids who hate trans people?
You might want to not play them then.🙃
You might want to not play them then
Not good enough, in this case. The fact that other people are playing them IS helping to destroy the portion of the gaming industry that I do enjoy.
This is a fact. It is not up for debate.
As you claim… in a community dedicated to debates 🙃.
Debates? Nah. Opinions.
There are exactly two words in the title of this community: “unpopular” and “opinion.”
Are you seeing the word “debate” in there, somewhere?
I mean, sure, I might debate in this community, if I feel like it. But right now, I don’t. And that’s absolutely fine.
The fuck is your problem dude?
I’m not sure that this is an unpopular opinion either. Not in the states at least.
All my homies hate pay to win - it’s antithetical to what gaming was about. Just the same as paid kits and scripts for hackers used to be called skids. It was about classless community on the internet period.
Fuck greed.
Like I said to someone else, this wouldn’t have been an unpopular opinion, just a couple of years ago.
But look at the front page of Reddit, without being logged in. It’s just POST AFTER POST AFTER POST AFTER POST about “Honky Stair Rail” and “Genshit Implants.”
Those two “games” are singlehandedly (double handedly? double-D anime-tittedly?) rehabilitating and normalizing the image of the free-to-pay genre.
But look at the front page of Reddit,
Well, there is your first mistake, thinking Reddit is organic.
Hmm. I guess that’s a really fair point. I hope it’s a LOT of corporate tail-wagging-the-dog shit, then.
There’s a lot less overlap between mobile and non-mobile than you think. I agree that these are trash business practices and we shouldn’t support it.
It’s just a Netflix for games. Many people who don’t really want to invest time (or so they think) are a new market that opened since games stopped to be a nerds’ shit. And it doesn’t end with the game itself: many play Fortnite or Genshin for social communications about it, it’s fandom and peer pressure. You could’ve seen that with the last episodes of Lost that were making news and got discussed everywhere, you see it now. And no wonder it’s then gets more publicity, because that’s what average person consumes.
Obviously, there’s a big red flag of capitalism perfecting it’s hooks, now in the mainstream. But there’s still a market for more engaging games. Souls-likes could’ve been dead in the water if TRU GAMIN has vanished, BG3 sales show that AAA can thrive, Dead Stranding kinda plays with that visible lack of gameplay while adding Kojima’s shenanigans, Devolver Digital still greenlits cool projects without bullshit. And games that try to marry classic IPs with some form of gacha\gambling fail like Diablo: Immortal or Owerwatch 2, because most CEOs are fortunately incappable of understanding their shit.
I feel like your general message of not supporting these practices is kind of misguided because the crowds who play Genshin\PUBG\whatever doesn’t often intersect with those who play non-casual games, and they probably aren’t represented on Lemmy that much.
Nooooooope to everything you just said. You’re simply wrong in every aspect of every word of this response.
STOP. APOLOGIZING. FOR. EVIL.
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Again I find myself on your side ChillDude… 100% with you on this one.
The biggest issue with this monetization model is that the developers ARE REQUIRED TO INVALIDATE your progress in some way. When a person buys everything they need and still plays the game, their only contribution is literally stealing bandwidth. Unless they’re contributing to some external resource.
Being treated like that is extremely dehumanizing so I can’t in good conscience put any money in these kinds of games.
The biggest issue with this monetization model is that the developers ARE REQUIRED TO INVALIDATE your progress in some way
THIS IS EXACTLY THE POINT THAT I SHOULD HAVE BEEN MAKING.
This is why it’s categorically impossible for there to be any “good” examples of these games. As long as they’re following this model, they can’t be okay and they must be boycotted by anyone who gives a shit about games.
I think this is why I was so frustrated, when people were asking me for examples of this model fucking shit up. It’s not about specific examples. Examples aren’t needed. There simply isn’t any way for this shit to be anything other than harmful.
It’s like if I said “getting whacked on the thumb with a sledgehammer will cause injury” and people were like “uhhh, could you cite some examples of this claim being true?”
Like, no. Just no. It’s fucking obvious. Asking for citations to prove that obvious harm is harmful is intellectually dishonest.
I’ve got a great example of what you described (not to be confused with good) There’s a mobile game called “Hooked inc.” I installed it on a whim while looking for something to similar to an old PC game I used to play. I played until things slowed down and to really progress in a timely manner you needed to spend the paid currency, but you can acquire it slowly by watching ads. So I did for a bit. Had the idea of an auto clicker macro so it could accumulate while I sleep, put an android emu on my laptop and did that until I discovered that the creator hadn’t anticipated keyboard access and had left in some shortcuts (presumably for testing). One button , i, u, or l maybe, gave you a skill point to spend, another gave a spin of the wheel without watching any ads. I maxed out the skill points and set a macro to constantly spin the wheel. Bought all the passive bonus characters and leveled them up, got tons of the rare items and leveled them. Made it significantly farther. Did a little math to see how long it would take to finish grinding out passive bonus levels and experience to get further. It would take days or weeks of spinning. Made me really feel bad for those watching ads thinking it’ll help them make some progress. Uninstalled the game a couple years, reinstalled to see if my “progress” has been wiped. Nope, but with all of the additions it felt rather insignificant. They’d added more grindy ad mechanics.
Sorry for the novel, Tldr for these games you can watch ads nonstop for weeks and have nothing to show for it. Better off uninstalling.
This is exactly what I’m talking about. And honestly, if it had just remained on the mobile platform, I could dismiss it. Like, “well, people are free to waste their time and/or money.”
But these new games like “Honky Stair Rail” and “Getshit Implants” are available on PC and consoles. They’re moving into territory that has traditionally been occupied by less hyper-monetized games. That means the developers of traditional games will be feeling more and more pressure to add hyper-monetization features into their games.
It’s scary. As I’ve mentioned, that could eventually lead to a second video game industry crash.
Right, it’s invaded games in a big way, all the big shooters like COD & Fortnite are basically cosmetic stores pushing micro transactions and battle passes. Now games are built with features paywalled and the only updates after launch are adding paid cosmetics.
I helped to destroy gaming by having kids. According to my game launcher, the last time I played a PC game I paid for was 3 years ago, and the game was published in 2011. So, having helped to destroy gaming already, I don’t give a flying fuck what people think of me for playing Crossmath on my phone while taking a dump, during the only opportunity when I’m not being disturbed.
I just looked up Crossmath. That’s an actual mobile game, the way mobile games are supposed to be.
You’re not spending your kids’ college fund on gacha pulls, trying to unlock a sexy outfit for the number 18.
So yeah, you carry on. You’re fine.
It seems someone lost their 50/50 gacha pull. Remember, 99% of gamblers stop just before they hit it big. Keep on gambling. You can only lose 100% of what you have but you can win an infinite amount of anime waifus, the math are clear on what you should do.
So you want people to play games that they enjoy less, over games that they enjoy more, because of the business model of said games?
Why dont you take it a step further. Why not make all mmorpgs illegal, since they use basic psychology, to make themselves addicting. Why do you like mmorpgs? Because number gets bigger and others can see that and it makes you feel good.
Real gamers play singleplayer games with no rpg elements. Everything else is exploitative and immoral. Paying a monthly subscription is modern day indentured servitude, ie slavery. You dont own the game, the game owns you.
I mean for sure these games are bad for the industry but I don’t think it’s a moral failing for people to play them. The reality is that companies have learned how to manipulate and ease worse practices into games over time. It sucks that a notable number of people have fallen for it but accusing individuals of being at fault (especially here) isn’t going to change the industry.
for sure these games are bad for the industry
Yes. I’m glad you agree.
I don’t think it’s a moral failing for people to play them.
No, it DEFINITELY is. Willingly helping to pervert and destroy a formerly constructive industry is immoral. Players and developers will all suffer, if this shit isn’t stopped.
Also, the industry is already changing. You haven’t noticed the price of traditional non-free-to-pay games rising, recently? You think that’s entirely unrelated to this shit? The dollars that are going into the gacha hole are being sucked out of the traditional model. That’s pressuring the traditional publishers to raise unit prices.
I’m not about to tell anybody they’re evil for playing a game like this and not knowing any better. If you really wanna change people’s habits, you’d be better off showing them what a better game can be. Even then, they could legitimately prefer their gachas or be addicted. I think that’s pretty crazy but there’s only so much one can do.
The AAA price increase was mostly just wanting more money and using inflation as an excuse. They’re not necessarily hurting because of f2p games. Well made traditional games still sell but often times the big publishers put out unfinished crap or overload their full-price games with monetization anyways. Those may be hurt financially. Meanwhile, games like Elden Ring and BG3 have done extremely well.
The pressure to change needs to be put on the companies, not the individuals. What the individual mostly needs is awareness.
What the individual mostly needs is awareness.
Awareness, you say?
Like people making posts about this situation?
I mean, there are several people in this thread who didn’t realize how popular and widespread these recent mobile-style games had become.
Yeah. Awareness. Kinda makes sense, now that YOU MENTION IT.
EDIT: maybe you need some awareness, yourself. One of the things that radicalized me enough to make this post is a survey I saw, where one of the anime bitches from these games was being voted as one of the most influential female video game characters of the current century.
These games are now major influences, in the world. They are raking in vast amounts of money and huge portions of mindshare. I’m not being hyperbolic.
Awareness is good but berating your average Joe is not the way to make any kind of systemic change. It will make them not listen to you or even actively work against you.
I get what you’re saying. I haven’t been exactly displaying ideal form, here.
I think what set me off is how some of these people responding are just being intellectually dishonest. The industry-harming, anti-consuming practices I’m talking about ARE definitely harmful. But people are like “hmm, could you cite some examples?”
It’s like if I said “being hit on the hand with a sledgehammer causes injury,” and jackasses came crawling out of the woodwork, doing their best smug-ass Elon Musk impressions: “hmmm. Interesting, if true. Can you cite some examples of this phenomenon?”
It’s bloody fucking obvious that a hammer to the knuckles is bad for you. It’s equally obvious that mobile-style milk-the-customer-for-everything-and-fuck-the-actual-gameplay software development practices are harmful.
Playing along with intellectually dishonest people isn’t something ANYBODY should feel obligated to do. It’s arguably something to be avoided.
Makes sense. I definitely feel the same frustration sometimes and think it’s insane when people actively defend practices like these or try to sweep the problem under the rug.
I really find it disturbing that a couple of the comments have an “okay, Boomer” flavor to them.
Well, yeah, no shit. This IS coming from a place of “back in my day…”
Yeah, I do remember a time when games weren’t as horrifically monetized as they are becoming. But the difference between me and the average pathological Boomer is that I AM ON THE SIDE OF THE YOUNGER PEOPLE. I’m advocating for them to have the good experiences that I have had.
I don’t want them to be fucked over, stripped of their money, and abused by the corporate fuck-machine. It’s disheartening to basically get a response that feel like: “whatever, old guy. I’m happy paying hundreds of dollars for a handful of .png files of anime tiddies.”
