Hello fellow c/privacy members.
I’m not new to privacy related things but I had a hard time persuading my family members and friends to switch to Matrix/Element. It is a reponse to UK’s Online Security Bill and Investigative Powers Act that may soon in effect.
While it is just a preperation and planning in case those actually became law, I already face resistance from them. When I ask them would they switch, their first reaction is “Why one more app?” then follows with “That’s cumbersome.” or “I don’t want to learn a new app.” and suggest something more popular like Line, Telegram or Discord. Sometimes they would “Install WhatsApp because X is on there and he/she won’t install one more app just for you.”
What can I do to persuade them to use a new platform? Thanks in advance.
EDIT: I think I should elebroate more of what Online Security Bill and Investigative Powers Act does[1]. As far as I understand, OSB will break E2EE by require scanning data on client device, like CSAM but much more generic. IPA requires companies to submit security funcition to the government for approval before releasing, and disable such feature upon request. Apple[2], Single[3] and WhatsApp made the announancment of exiting the UK market totally or partically if two were signed into law.
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/thenextweb.com/news/uk-investigatory-powers-act-default-surveillance-devices-privacy
[2] https://web.archive.org/web/www.forbes.com/sites/emmawoollacott/2023/07/21/apple-threatens-to-pull-facetime-and-imessage-from-the-uk
[3] https://web.archive.org/web/20230809125823/https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-65301510#2023-08-09T12:57:48+00:00
Matrix is a protocol
Which is 100% controlled by the Matrix Foundation (and not an international standard like XMPP), which in turn is near 100% controlled by a single UK based company (Element/New Vector). Which makes the distinction between the company and the protocol absolutely moot. I wish it was otherwise.
That’s not really true though. If the Matrix foundation, element or any other party does something scketchy just fork it
Have you ever looked at the Synapse codebase? It’s almost as bad as Chromium and we all know how impossible that is to “just fork”.
That comparison doesn’t make sense. They are actively developing Dendrite alongside Synapse. They goal of Synapse is to be the stable version that just works and deploys the new features. Not necessarily being slim and efficient. That’s where Dendrite comes in and is very close to being feature parity. Many major servers already are running Dendrite and you wouldn’t even notice.
So if Google was actively developing a competitor to Chromium that is much more slimmed down and efficient, then your comparison would make sense.
You don’t need to speculate what they’re doing. It’s entirely open source, and you can validate every line of code they’re putting in. Is there any actual parts of the matrix protocol or app you’re specifically warning against, or are you causing general FUD?
Again, we don’t need to speculate, the entire platform is open source from server to client, so if there’s an issue with legislation then you can see it reflected in the code.
I am not speculating about anything. Are you personally ready to develop & maintain a fork of a Matrix homeserver or client? There is of course Conduit and Fluffychat etc. but they chronically lack behind in features and have all sorts of incompatibilities.
If Element is forced to implement the privacy invasive features required by this proposed UK legislation you will have little choice but to follow along as the entire ecosystem is over-engineered and designed to give Element a competitive edge over other competitors trying to use the same protocol. Like with Chromium it doesn’t matter much that it is open-source.
You list multiple alternative server software and then claim it’s unachievable at the same time lol. You are proving yourself wrong. Also there are a ton of other good Matrix apps out there besides Element.
You are speculating because you are speculating something could potentially go wrong because they’re in the UK, therefore the entire FOSS ecosystem and company they built just be untrustworthy.
honestly I don’t think at all that it is over engineered. I see that alt implementations can’t keep up with the new features (or at least that was what I remember from a year or 2 ago, but now that I looked into it, conduit development gained some momentum), but that is not because it would be over engineered, but because the devs of the alt implementations all do this in their free time.
Conduit got a nice update today, which makes it only about 2 years behind Synapse or so ;)
It is true that they are mostly hobby projects and that is part of the reason why they are lagging behind, but a regular chat server is actually not that hard to write. There are multiple hobbyist written XMPP servers (and multiple enterprise written ones as well) that are up to specs and work well. Granted, they had a bit more time doing so, and Conduit might eventually catch up as well… but similar to Google and Chromium, it is not in the business interest of Element to have anyone come up with a fully viable alternative to their reference implementation.
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And then? Either you never update it, which likely means you will gradually stop being able to communicate with other people on the Matrix network, or you do, which means you will get those privacy invasive changes on your own server as well. And as I extensively explained elsewhere in this thread, forking is not a realistic option.
I guess I can just remove such code if they ever implement it as the home server is open sourced (Synapse). Plus other implementation exists (Conduit). Still, I will have a look on XMPP and see if it meets my needs. As others points out, I shouldn’t persuade but adapt thus I need bridges to connect other services, which Matrix isn’t lack of.
XMPP has very nice bridges as well: https://joinjabber.org/tutorials/gateways/slidge/
I preferred xmpp because it’s easier to host and consumes MUCH less RAM than a Matrix server. idk how both of them scale, but I only have myself and a few friends and family on my XMPP server and works fine.
Lemme know when there’s an actual usable client for XMPP. What software do you even use to connect to XMPP?
I use Gajim, family uses Conversations.
Conversations looks like it was made for Android kit Kat lol. Are you expecting that to be the messaging app killer as a serious recommendation to people
What do you mean? It lacks critical features?
What?
I had a look of the screenshots and don’t think the design is out of the ordinary. I don’t need a “messaging app killer” but a functional, secure, and private “chat platform”. XMPP with OMEMO looks quite good for me.