Imagine how Apple will feel if Google got docked for this. Apple’s app store is even worse. You can’t even side load apps on an iPhone/iPad without jailbreak.
Yeah, I’m wondering why Google got targeted first for this when Apple locks down their ecosystem a lot more. Not to defend Google, I would cheer a decision to break them up.
They didn’t. Epic sued Apple in 2021. They lost. They’ve already filed for appeal. They are targeting Apple and Google for the same infraction. It’s not about the App Store, it’s mostly about the 30% commission both companies take on app sales AND in app purchases.
It’s not about the App Store, it’s mostly about the 30% commission both companies take on app sales [in the app store] AND in app purchases [through the app store].
How is it not about the app store?
I guess it is, I just mean it’s not about the App Store itself, so much as the continued costs. I think it’s more the in app purchases that is the problem. Google and Apple don’t allow in app purchases without paying them a huge cut.
Epic doesn’t really have a problem using the app stores. They just don’t want to pay such a massive commission for no reason. Google makes it difficult to use other app stores, and Apple doesn’t allow it. This means that you either pay them in perpetuity for every micro transaction, or you don’t get to push your app.
So I guess my point was just that the app stores are the ultimate root of the issue, but it goes a lot deeper than just the app stores themselves to the predatory pricing structure major companies impose. If this is successful eventually, or if the Apple appeal is, we have the potential to see a real shift in the way compensation for developers is handled. I’m being optimistic of course, but it would be nice.
Apple paid off more government officials?
Because once Google play store is down, it will set a precedent to take apple store down too.
Bingo
Epic sued Apple in 2021. Google and Apple removed Fortnite from their respective app stores within hours of each other. Epic was ready with lawyers and announced they were going to court. They lost the case against Apple. They’ve already filed an appeal.
You can side load them, kinda, its just a huge pain so your point still stands
Do you have a method that keeps sideloaded apps “verified” permanently? If you do, please do tell. I’d love to install YouTube++ on my kid’s tablet so they don’t have to sit through ads all the time.
Just download Xcode, it’s free, and it’s from Apple. With that you can deploy any app (if you have the binary - or the source code, but you don’t technically need the source code) on your own devices and a hundred other people’s devices (it’s supposed to be work colleagues, but your kid’s tablet will work too in practice, who’s going to check or care?).
You can also “sideload” your app to up ten thousand devices linked to other Apple IDs via TestFlight which also a service run by Apple (for a nominal subscription fee) and intended for developers to test apps that aren’t ready for distribution yet, though that process does require a partial review by Apple (it’s mostly just an automated malware scan, not a full app review). It’s perfectly normal for an app to be in development for years without going public. Most apps I’ve written have never shipped, but I still use a few of them on my own devices.
As for getting a copy of YouTube++ from a reputable source, that doesn’t contain malware… that’s basically no different from downloading software for a Mac or PC. Be careful where you download it from yeah?
Generally though, using Xcode is safer than using AltStore since you haven’t jailbroken your device and all the sandboxing/etc is still in place. I’d be more worried about malware infecting your Mac when you load it into Xcode than I would about the iPhone (though it certainly could contain a zero day that escapes the sandbox).
Check out Yattee on the App Store. It’s a client for Piped.
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/yattee/id1595136629
You will need to manually add a Piped instance such as piped.video
Also note I don’t own an iOS device, so I haven’t tried this app myself.
Thank you so much. I’ll check it out
If the Google Play store is a monopoly, then what the fuck is the apple store? At least on android you’re not forced to only use the play store if you choose, unless you do some sketchy shit to your iPhone, you’re stuck with their store only.
I believe the argument Apple used is that the PlayStation or Xbox doesn’t need to have an alternative app store and everyone is fine with that, so iPhone is a similar device. Android, on the other hand, allow for installation of external app store.
Epic already tried and failed with the same argument against Apple, from the article:
Epic in 2021 mostly lost a nearly identical case against Apple over its own app store monopoly for iOS devices, and it is waiting to find out whether the US Supreme Court will hear an appeal.
It’s not an android post without someone trying to make it about Apple instead.
You looked at the text but clearly didn’t read it.
They’re saying that if Apple won the same lawsuit when it’s appstore is an actual monopoly, then Epic doesn’t stand a chance against Google.
How could it be? Most Android manufacturers, including Google, allow you to use other app stores.
If anyone has an Unjust Monopoly in this space it’s Apple. (Though I think it’s unfortunately more complicated than that, as much as I’d love to see Apple forced to let other app stores on.)
The Play Store is installed by default, and doesn’t allow other app stores to be listed. So the only way to install another one, is to go out on the net and download an APK directly. When you try to install it, the system gives you a warning that it can be dangerous. Just those two hurdles are enough to ensure the vast majority of users will never leave the hurdle-less Play Store.
Surely the warning is justified though? Yes it’s a hurdle, but it seems reasonable and other platforms also warn users about apps from unverified sources, so it is common within the industry. If the play store is determined to be a monopoly, and gets broken up or off, I think a warning would still be warranted.
The default install thing used to be an issue, i.e. MS Explorer, but people seem to have stopped caring since all OS’s now have pre-installed junk.
I guess the argument could be made thst the play store should allow downloading of other app stores? I’d be in favor of that, but I don’t know if the courts can force something like that.
Yes it’s a hurdle, but it seems reasonable
99% of of users never get over that hurdle, which makes it unreasonable. “Monopoly” is the wrong term to use and it distracts from the issue - the better term is “Market Power”. Google has enough power to have a potentially damaging impact on the industry. With that power comes responsibility to not do any damage - that’s not just my opinion it’s also the law (not in those exact words obviously).
Also - the apps are from “unverified sources” because Google deliberately refuses to verify them. They’re happy to verify and assign a trust rating to every single webpage in the world… why are apps treated different? The simple answer is because Google makes more money by refusing to verify apps unless they share 30% of their revenue - which is basically extortion. There’s no way they’re doing enough work to justify a fee that high.
Sure, charge whatever fee you want but allow third party stores to compete fairly. In that world if they want to continue charging as much as they are now, they need to offer a hell of a lot more than developers are getting right now for their money.
The Play Store is installed by default, and doesn’t allow other app stores to be listed.
Not saying it’s much better, but my phone came with the playstore and the “Galaxy store”… now there isn’t a lot of useful stuff in the Galaxy store, but you can wager money against other players in games of solitaire, bingo and bubble pop… so there’s that at least…
And? For anyone who actually wants another app store, that’s not exactly a high bar of technical know-how. In fact, for the most part it’s the way stuff works on other platforms as well (provided you even have the option of choosing on those).
If you want to install Steam on Windows you need to download it, click through, and run the installer.
Linux may have snap etc, but to add unofficial software channels you need to manually edit things.
Apple straight out says “nope” on iOS unless you jailbreak.
In xiaomi phones there is a xiaomi store, in Samsung phones there is a galaxy store, and here in Spain if you buy a phone through a ISP, you may get another app store from said ISP (I know Orange and Vodaphone do this, Vodaphone going as far as preinstalling shitty mobile games on their phones to get a commission)
Apple should be on trial, but that doesn’t mean Google shouldn’t be
Epic and Apple have already had this battle two years ago. Epic lost. They’ve filed an appeal already. They served Apple and Google at the same time. Google removed Fortnite within hours of Apple doing so. Epic will battle Google, and if they lose here, they will likely appeal this too.
This is correct, but misses some semantics. Apple won because they argued that they controlled everything on the iPhone to give it a coherent design. Therefore it doesn’t make sense to allow 3rd parties to swap out the profitable component from underneath them.
Google on the other hand has always allowed 3rd party versions of things on Android- so Google can’t make the same argument.
(I’m not defending anything here, only summarizing the cases)
That’s fair. I didn’t want to go into too much detail, and there is some information on this in the posts linked article. I still think Google will win this though. While both companies have revenue in the billions, Google has revenue nearly a hundred times epic. That seems to usually factor in to who wins these things.
I’m just baffled by how many people are saying “Google?! Let’s put Apple on trial instead!” Apple has already gone through this and will likely again. This information is spelled out pretty clearly in the linked article. In my opinion, they should all be on trial. As much as I love steam, valve should be on trial too. 30% cut for the platforms the majority of people use (effectively locking devs into using those platforms) is an insult, and it’s untenable for a lot of smaller devs.
These predatory pricing practices are equivalent to highway robbery to me. If we keep saying, oh Apple should be on trial not Google! then these companies win. They want us to be in conflict with each other so we don’t notice the other hand moving.
Edit: and I know you agree with me, so I hope this isn’t coming off hostile or directed at you. If it is, then I apologize.
Imagine how untenable Apple’s position would be if the Play Store is proven to be a monopoly.
Apple has already gone through this. Apple won. It’s unlikely epic will beat Google either. When they likely lose, they will file an appeal just like they’ve done with Apple.
It’s a monopsony - a monopoly from the other side.
Google Play Store is not the single seller of apps to users but a single sensible buyer from developers. Of course with most apps being free of change, “buyer” and “seller” are loose terms to satisfy the definition.
It’s both really.
As an app developer it’s a monopsony.
As an app user its a monopoly.
It wouldn’t hurt forcing them to allow other app stores to be listed in the app store.
Microsoft was considered a monopoly for including internet explorer with windows, despite the fact you could still install a 3rd party browser.
They weren’t considered a monopoly for including IE, they were considered a monopoly for very much being the dominant OS and then were abusing said monopoly to block competing products or standards.
That’s not true.
Epic already went to court for the same thing with Apple in 2021. Epic lost. They’ve filed an appeal already. Apple and Google both removed Fortnite from their respective stores within hours of each other.
It’s unlikely epic will win this battle, but if they don’t, they will likely file an appeal against Google as well.
I’ve noticed the play store try and stop me from installing the odd sideloaded or fdroid app. It seems to be getting more common the last few months.
I’m thinking they are going to pull a no sideloaded thing sometime just to get rid of adblockers etc
Technical characteristics like Android making it hard or impossible for third-party app stores to auto-update, as well as restrictive agreements with phone manufacturers and carriers are pretty damning. Google deserves to lose based on that, however,
their devices sometimes warn that the “file might be harmful” and require settings to be changed to allow “unknown” apps
Chrome on Windows warns that a .exe download might be harmful. Chrome on Linux warns that a .deb download might be harmful. We have a long history of malware using drive-by downloads or trying to pose as non-executable file types as evidence that these features are in the user’s interests. At most, some rewording of “unknown” sources might be in order.
At most, some rewording of “unknown” sources might be in order.
On Windows and Linux (and Mac) there are ways to setup your computer to trust certain sources. You should be able to set a third party app store as a trusted source.
And yeah cut out the “unknown” bullshit and just show the name of the company after verifying their identity - which is a feature Android already has and uses all the time to check if a third party website can be trusted.
For everyone in the back of the room, monopoly in the context doesn’t require to literally have no other choice. It’s enough for the alternatives to be impractical as in not widely used in practice.
Well that’s an easy one then, if that’s true.
Especially for Apple phones, damn.
Yeah it’s pretty obnoxious how much control the app stores have.
It does make device security easier, but
I’m not the world’s most elite hacker, but I know a thing or two and it took me a long time to get F-Droid going on my Android and even longer to figure out how to side load apps and where to get the files for side loading.
It can be done but I’d guess 99% of people out there have never and will never do these 2 things.
Android makes you double confirm every installation on F-Droid. If you want to install something you have to tap to download, then tap again to actually install the software. Updating apps is incredibly annoying.
The google store doesn’t do this. They allow sideloading, but they do a lot to discourage it.
Is it possible that alternatives are not widely used because most people don’t want to use alternatives in the first place?
Sure it is. It doesn’t change the monopoly position. The real question isn’t whether this is a monopoly but whether it’s being abused. E.g. imagine if Google charged 99% fee on any sale via the Play Store. Or if Google disallowed alternative methods of payment but their own for any app distributed on the Play Store.
It’s such a monopoly!! Epic Games decided they don’t want to pay Google a 30% cut so didn’t put Fortnite on the Play Store, and now they have absolutely no way of making an Android version! (/s)
What’s up with Apple not allowing sideloads? They also have an app store, AND don’t allow installing from outside of it. Users can only do that if they hack their devices. You can kinda de-Google stock Android, and disable all Google apps to not show up, and install a third-party store. You can fully de-Google it by rooting. There is a literal button to unlock the OEM, and then you can unlock the bootloader, and root or install a custom OS. Sure, it’s not that easy, but you can. No matter how scary the warning is that it gives at boot, it’s still an intended thing. Just because it gives a warning when you install an *unsigned app, it isn’t a monopoly. Windows SmartScreen also does it when an app is unsigned, and the install anyways button is hidden behind a more details button.
Ok, it can’t auto-update without root and Play Store doesn’t allow other app stores to be put on it, I just don’t understand why they are targetting Google out of all things.
They could make a section in the Play Store that lists other trusted app stores, and maybe even allow downloading them directly from the Play Store, but I can’t decide if they should manually put them there, allow free submissions, or allow submissions while still having to pay. And they should make implementation of auto-updates for non-system apps easier.
This is definitely not an unjust monopoly tough.
Epic games decided they don’t want to pay 30% of every transaction to Google or Apple. They sued Apple already and lost. They’ve filed an appeal, so we will hear more on that soon ish. I’m not an epic fan at all, but 30% of all sales is ridiculous. Epic themselves take 12% on the epic store. Valve, Apple, Google—none of these companies should get a third of the sale price for everything sold through an app downloaded from there store. Not just the price of the app, but all app revenue. Every in app purchase. All of it.
The $25 registration fee is just for the account. That’s negligible considering Apple charges $100 a year. It’s the commission these companies take that epic is suing over.
The Epic Games Store isn’t profitable so it may not be a good example for how fees should be set.
Also, Epic is trying to argue lower fees would benefit consumers but games generally aren’t cheaper on Epic’s store than on Steam.
Yeah I mean they’re handing out games for free left and right, their store sucks, their reputation sucks (both among gamers and most devs), of course they’re not making a profit. Their 12% cut is only able to about cover costs because it doesn’t include transaction fees and while I’d like Stream to lower their cut they’re providing a fuckton of service for devs and the health of the wider ecosystem. I’d wish Gabe would finally figure out succession, though, e.g. make Valve a foundation, think Zeiss or Bosch, to make sure it stays bound to statutes instead of finance for eternity.
They aren’t cheaper in epic, but more money goes to the publishers and developers. It sucks when a game studio you like goes under.
I’d argue they aren’t profitable because of steam. Everybody uses steam, and most people will wait 6 months to get the epic exclusives after the exclusivity runs out.
They aren’t cheaper in epic, but more money goes to the publishers and developers. It sucks when a game studio you like goes under.
I’d argue they aren’t profitable because of steam. Everybody uses steam, and most people will wait 6 months to get the epic exclusives after the exclusivity runs out.
I guess as a studio it boils down to is would they rather get 70% of 10 million sales or 88% of 1 million sales. They have to make that calculus and also whether they’re going to spend money to make, test, distribute and support multiple builds of the same game to capture as many sales from as many platforms as possible.
I once made an app for Android that I distributed on Play, Amazon and Blackberry(!) app stores and it soon became a huge pain in the ass. Since the stores have different banner / screenshot requirements, different upload requirements, even different approval procedures that could mean uploads took a week to appear. In the end I just gave up and used Play because it was the largest audience and relatively frictionless.
I think the way 2k does it is a good model. They release in epic exclusively for like 6 months, and tben steam and epic after. Idk what the different requirements are for the various game stores, but the build version should be the same for a software that large.
It’s also the publishers job to handle marketing, so that would fall under their purview rather than the devs at least. With 2k’s model for the ‘lands series, they get the best of both worlds for the most part. The only customers they lose are the ones who are staunchly against using multiple game portals or just really dislike epic for one reason or another.
For a small developer, I do agree though. It comes down to whether they think a larger audience will benefit them. Sometimes being a large fish in a small pond is better, sometimes not. I won’t pretend I’ve got personal experience marketing and selling a game, but I do believe (and not just because I’m a developer) that the dev companies and publishers should get more of the pie than the platform they are selling on.
Because as you said, it’s impossible to create an alternative app store that works and auto update like the Play Store does.
Google has is in a duopoly with Apple for smartphones OS. They are abusing their dominant position on mobile OS to ensure a dominant position on mobile app stores.
That’s exactly what the antitrust laws are about: abusing your position in one domain to kill competition on another.
Yes Apple is worse, that means the situation needs to change on both platforms.
It’s COMPLETELY possible to have an alternative app store that does these things. You could install F-Droid on your phone if you so wished right now. Many phones have Samsung’s app store baked into them. Amazon also have an app store.
It would more correct to say that Google preinstalls Play store and enjoys the power of the default - this stuff is in all their licensed phones, it does the job and vast majority people lack a motivation to use anything else. But if people were motivated they could do something else it since the door isn’t completely closed as it is on many other platforms.
I think this is just Epic getting pissed that they either have to agree to the terms of using Play, including give a cut of in-app purchases or go it alone and do their own thing. They could even have their own app store if they wanted - who knows if they had better terms than Google then maybe they could attract other games onto the platform, or find some other model, like curated subscription based gaming.
If you wanted fdroid to update apps automatically
you’d need to have some system level service running like Google Play services. This is course could be achieved with a custom rom or using root. (This is how huwai and other devices that don’t get the play store, as well as Samsung handle their own stores)[untrue as of Android 12, see below comment]That said I view automatic updates as an anti feature most of the time. I should be asked if I want updates. You can of course turn off auto updates in the play store too though so that’s more of a side note.
Actually as of Android 12, there are APIs that allow third party app stores that aren’t system apps to automatically update apps.
Huh that’s cool. I haven’t looked into the apis since about Android 9 so that checks out.
Android 12 not API 12
Just so that there’s no misunderstanding
What am I missing? You can download other app stores like Aurora or F-Droid do what’s the monopoly?
Right? This should be squarely aimed at Apple rather than Google. Google certainly makes it a little difficult, but unlike Apple it’s at least possible to do through official features without literally hacking the device.
Epic is suing Google with claims that Google has a monopoly on their App Store. It will likely not be successful.
Epic already sued Apple 2 years ago with an incredibly similar trial. Epic lost that trial, but has filed an appeal, so they may get their day in court again for that one.
The complaint is that epic started allowing its Epic Direct Payment service through Fortnite on mobile. Google and Apple both take a 30% cut from any sales through their App Store. Apple pulled Fortnite from the App Store basically immediately. Google followed suit several hours later.
Epic expressed their intent to sue both companies immediately. They likely were prepared to litigate, knowing the two would not be happy. I do think personally that 30% is a ridiculous amount. Valve also takes a 30% cut from games sold on steam. I think that is criminal for all of these app stores.
I’m not an epic fan, but they only take a 12% cut on their store, so I have to applaud them for that.
Potentially it’s targeting google first to set a precedent?
They sued Apple in 2021. They lost. They’ve filed an appeal, and we will see how the court handles this. They announced intent to sue for both companies in 2020. It’s not about third party app stores so much as the 30% cut both companies take on app sales AND in app purchases.
Google enforces the installation of the crappy side bar google feed if you want to ship your phone with Google Play and Gapps
It also includes some other wacky tacky tracking and data collection bs, and some magic legal licensing stupidity that basically lets google control your software packages with what must be installed as system apps.
Google spent the past decade basically ensuring no competitor app store succeeds. No OEM uses Aurora, and only FOSS people use F-Droid. Samsung Shop is also a joke.
Anytime OEMs even try to make an alternative function, Google hangs their Gapps policy over them and prevents them from ever releasing into the market. Most notably affected are most of the Chinese brands which also got slammed by US government bans. “China government surveillance” is not an excuse when gapps literally do the exact same thing.
I think the last phone I ever had that had its own unique android apps and tools was the LeEco Le 2/S3, which came out in 2016. Nowadays, you can’t even use allegedly superior RCS without google’s crappy Gapps messages app.
It’s the other stuff that you are forced to accept if you want access to google play store.
Its not really solely about the play store.
A monopoly is whatever the party says it is
We have always been at war with Eastasia
A you being sarcastic?
Not at all, there are a lot of third party spots stores for Android and getting them working isn’t that difficult.
Apple allows nothing but their store, peroid.
Seems like we’re focused on the wrong app store here.
Oh, ok, let me explain.
When Android was still young there were actually more app stores, for example one from Amazon. Since Google owns a lot of services and apps that people like to use on a phone (maps, email, browser, search) phone manufactures wanted to sell phones with official Android licensed by Google. So what Google did was to offer discount on Android license to manufacturers that would preinstall only Play store on their phones. Most manufactures went with it and soon all phones had only Play store preinstalled. Since no other store was popular app developers would only publish apps in Play store thus ensuring that no other store would gain popularity among normal users.
Today, when Android is the only competition for iOS Google only licenses Android to companies that don’t offer un-googled phones. So if company wants to sell Android phone with Google Maps, Gmail and google search they can’t also offer Lineage OS versions.
This is definition of monopoly. Google used money to kill off competing stores and now is using their dominant position to not let anyone else on the market.
Google Play is a monopoly in practice, but it’s not like other app stores don’t exist and might even be preinstalled. Samsung’s store is baked into their phones. AOSP forked firmwares (Kindle, Baidu, LineageOS, etc.) might not have Google apps at all. But even on Google android phones, Amazon Appstore, Samsung Galaxy Store, F-Droid etc. can be sideloaded. Even apps like Netflix are turning into app stores to give away stuff with a subscription. Any APK at all is available to sideload assuming someone wants to.
So it’s a defacto monopoly and perhaps it is intended that way by Google knowing few people will bother to install anything else even when the door is open to do it. Is it any different from most other platforms though? Apple is completely shut. So are XBox, Nintendo & Playstation. Even Windows has a preinstalled appstore that Microsoft is pushing hard with things like Windows S (“safe mode”) to stop people from escaping.
As for Epic, I think they’re just pissed that Google wanted a quid pro cut of the profits. They feigning shock that in return for putting Fortnite in front of a lot of eyeballs, promoting it, facilitating millions of download/installation/updates that Google would want something in return. Epic demonstrated they could sideload Fortnite via an APK downloaded from their store so they can pick their poison - distribute a game entirely for themselves, or do it via a store subject to the terms and conditions.
This might all become irrelevant in March/April 2024 once the European Digital Markets Act (DMA) kicks in. Apple will have to allow and even enable side-loading on their junk. Both Google and Apple will have to allow third-party payment services and reduce their cut from 30% to (IIRC) 15%.
But if a court in the US makes the right decision, it might have an additional ripple effect. 🤞
There is a kind of precedent for this actually, back in the 90s when Microsoft got dinged for bundling internet explorer with Windows. This feels like it’s basically the same thing.
And that changed so much…
It actually did - Microsoft is an ethical company now, they’ve done a great job with GitHub for example and also more successful than they ever were in the bad old days when they terrorised the industry.
Is this sarcasm? I really can’t tell.
Super ethical… Just bundling a ton of Spyware in with windows and trying to lock down your hardware into their ecosystem even though it didn’t come from them… 🙄
Microsoft is an ethical company now
Apart from the whole ripping off open source code to make their closed source copilot thing?
Can you elaborate? Don’t want to sound like an apologist, just genuinely curious
they use github to train copilot, which sometimes reproduces code without paying attention to the license of the code it’s regurgitating.
Makes sense
There are monopolistic things about the Play Store, but compared to competing platforms it’s a lot better than most. Android allows you to install apps from outside of the store without any extreme hacks. Contrast that vs iPhone or game consoles.
But yes, the fact that Google doesn’t want anybody else to have official stores bundled on Android/Play-services supported devices is a huge anticompetitive action. Also, the Play Store does get some premium support from the OS.
But I’ve used 3rd-party stores in addition to installing direct-downloaded apps and the workflow isn’t bad at all. I just wish you could whitelist a domain when using the browser, so I could say “I only want to download APKs from HumbleBundle.com since their app is gone” without opening up APK installs from all domain names in the browser. Possibly some kind of store-signature system would be better for this instead of controlling by installing app.
Samsung phones come with the Galaxy Store pre-installed as well.
Idk what would be a solution for that but in the case of comic readers like tachiyomi their extensions are installed by it and they auto update too
It is difficult to see the case for this compared to Alphabet’s monopolistic hold on searches, and their extremely pervasive power to place ads.
Chinese Android phones came bundled with third-party app store. Huawei, after US embargo, still has strong presence in Asia even without Google Play Store. Xiaomi has GetApp, Samsung has, too.
Apple, on the other hand, would not let you sideload apps.
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Not really a monopoly, sadly. Still found it a dick move the first time it warned me that an apk I downloaded wasn’t from play.
“Monopoly - (economics) a market in which there are many buyers but only one seller”
Certainly a practical monopoly, if not a literal one. I would bet 99.9% of all app installs on android are through the Play Store.
Google Play accounts for well over 90 percent of all downloads onto Android phones in the US, according to state prosecutors
I’m comfortable installing apks and even I probably only have 3 or 4 vs the 50 or 60 play store apps on my phone.
