• Tankiedesantski [he/him]@hexbear.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          60
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          1 year ago

          Sorry, you’re right. In the absence of specific genocidal intent, the US and UK are only guilty of crimes against humanity, the crime of aggression, and various sundry war crimes.

          • astral_avocado@programming.dev
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            8
            arrow-down
            12
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            Yes, correct. Now Saddam Hussein on the other hand…

            Edit: oh you’re one of the hexbear people, jesus you people are insufferable

              • astral_avocado@programming.dev
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                4
                arrow-down
                6
                ·
                1 year ago

                Saddam Hussein didn’t literally genocide kurdish people? Not saying that justifies a country halfway across the world to brutally occupy them, but it’s not like that didn’t happen.

                  • astral_avocado@programming.dev
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    2
                    arrow-down
                    7
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    In the former instance there was an actual concerted effort to specifically murder people of a certain minority. In the latter there was a misguided attempt to squash an insurgency and build a new government at all costs. This is documented history and I can only assume you’ve been drooling on some communist furry subs for the past decade and just left adolescence. You can’t just change word’s definitions for your own childish deranged goals.

                • SeborrheicDermatitis [any]@hexbear.net
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  31
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Yes, but that is not a valid reason to justify the war because an autonomous Kurdish zone had already been set up after the Anfal in 1992. The only way Iraqi troops got in there is when the KDP invited them in during the Kurdish Civil War from 1994-7. Then once that was mediated and the KRG was split into two the Iraqi Army was no longer allowed in. The only real change 2003 brought was the legalising and formal institutionalisation of the KRG such that foreign capital was more willing to invest in it (encouraged, in fact, as the US tried to rebuild Iraq to stabilise things) and it had a big shiny “legal” sticker on it. The realities on the ground didn’t change though, especially as the constitutional articles surrounding referendums on Kirkuk and other disputed areas never came to fruition.

                  So by 2003 the Kurdish Question in Iraq had not been solved, but it had certainly been pacified in intensity, because a de facto independent KRG already existed!

                  I get what you’re saying, though. Yes, Saddam was an abhorrent and awful leader who was a genocidaire. However, the war was still an illegal catastrophe based on falsehoods that made things drastically worse for the Iraqi people. It is unjustifiable even when you take Saddam’s terrible-ness into account.

            • Schooner@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              39
              arrow-down
              4
              ·
              1 year ago

              Yeah killing millions of people was totally worth getting one man!

              Now let’s bomb Washington DC to rubble and kill your family so we can get to Bush, the even bigger war criminal.

                • MemesAreTheory [he/him, any]@hexbear.net
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  26
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Nah you just pearl clutched when we called Western Powers bad names.

                  I’m loosely in favor of restricting the use of the word genocide to when it’s definitionally appropriate myself, but that’s in the context of effective communication and clarity. So long as “genocide” is going to be used exclusively to refer to US State Department desginated enemies only, then it’s perfectly reasonable to liken the US/France/UK’s horrific foreign interventions genocide as well. Western interventions, both formal and clandestine, have killed many more than anyone else those imperialist fucks have accused of the word, so in the interest of showing just how absurd their usage is yes, we should and can call Western powers genocidal too.

        • SeborrheicDermatitis [any]@hexbear.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          43
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          1 year ago

          I mean I do agree with you (as a genocide studies scholar in training, God willing!), but I think your view of the US as just a clumsy, misguided oaf doing the wrong thing for the right reasons is not accurate. It was never the case that the US tried to build a democratic government and failed-from the very start the US instilled Bremer (that idiot) as a dictator; he openly restricted freedom of the press, freedom of speech and association, and had people critical of the CPA arrested. Then afterwards the US tried to interfere in the elections to support Allawi but failed miserably. The CIA and the US embassy has always had a huge role in the picking of Iraqi Prime Ministers and other ministers and has never stopped quashing Iraqi self-determination and democratic will. Just look at what they supported Maliki through!

          • astral_avocado@programming.dev
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            5
            arrow-down
            3
            ·
            1 year ago

            Thank you for your well informed comment, the whole thing was indeed a clusterfuck and you know more than me. What are you doing on that godforsaken instance?

            • SeborrheicDermatitis [any]@hexbear.net
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              22
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              I am a socialist and it is nice to be among socialists, put simply. I disagree with plenty of them on many issues but honestly I have not found people rude or mean to me-indeed, even less so than on liberal forums e.g., reddit. Plus there is an energetic solidarity and support for marginalised ppl (I am disabled + poor + mentally ill) that you do not get in most communities because I feel they understand more so the structural roots behind these marginalisations (since they are socialists!).

              Also I was on hexbear since the start (the migration from /r/cth to chapo.chat) and I don’t really know what Lemmy is lol.

        • loathsome dongeater@lemmygrad.ml
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          35
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          Also you: https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/1081955

          When you say it like that sure, except they also deny the Uyghur genocide and ignore the fact that China has their internet walled off and heavily censored/policed.

          Basically they’re so pro-communism that they looped back around and are now pro-fascists and drink the Kool aid. Not to mention the fact that China is only communist in name lol

    • Antikythera@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      33
      arrow-down
      13
      ·
      1 year ago

      You’re not wrong, but just because the USA and UK got away with it doesn’t mean we should continue to let others get away with it. We can’t go back in time and fix it but we’ve got to start somewhere.

      • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        80
        arrow-down
        9
        ·
        1 year ago

        Can you even manage in a fever dream to think that this would set a precedent that would result in the US ever getting punished?

        • TheMage@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          4
          arrow-down
          13
          ·
          1 year ago

          Punished for what? Throwing money and military support towards everyone when they need it? Oh, that. Right. As always, hating the USA is what the cool kids do these days. Until they need taxpayer money or military support. I’d love to see us cut off every ounce of support we give to other nations and see how that works out.

          • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            47
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            I’d love to see us cut off every ounce of support we give to other nations and see how that works out.

            Me too! It would be an incredible turn of events that would massively benefit the world. Could you throw in removing the blockades on Cuba and the DPRK and others while you are at it?

          • camaron30 [he/him]@hexbear.net
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            32
            arrow-down
            4
            ·
            1 year ago

            COOL. GO AHEAD.

            Lmao, the US, simultaneously the strongest and coolest country in the world and a cucked nation that can be bullied by even the smallest african country into giving away free protection.

            • Apollo@sh.itjust.works
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              10
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              1 year ago

              Are you guys from hexbear all 14 or something? I see a bunch of you posting infantile memes in response to criticism.

              • Hadriscus@lemm.ee
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                3
                arrow-down
                3
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                they also assume everyone else is from the US and heartily supports imperialism somehow

                The three year long echo chamber did wonders it seems

          • Aria@lemmygrad.ml
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            8
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            What support do you think you give? The “support” you give is either A) The cost of running your own propaganda, and paying target-nation actors. B) Weapons you buy from your own capitalists. C) Bribes in exchange for target-nation puppets to exploit their own people for the benefit of your capitalists. There is no fourth category.

      • judgeholden [he/him]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        71
        arrow-down
        14
        ·
        1 year ago

        it’s just a coincidence that this stuff only ever starts with our state enemies huh? only the bad countries get sanctioned for doing the same things we/our allies do. only Russia has to compete with neutral flags. only African leaders get prosecuted in the ICC.

        it’s all nonsense used to manufacture consent for war and military spending

        • Tankiedesantski [he/him]@hexbear.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          22
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          “Not arresting this black man for possession of 0.01 grams of weed isn’t going to go back in time and punish all those white guys we let go despite possessing much more weed. Cuff him, boys.”

        • Fazoo@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          23
          arrow-down
          6
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          Russia competes with neutral flags because they can’t stop doping. It has nothing to do with us vs them. They literally can’t stop cheating.

      • StalinwasaGryffindor [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        55
        arrow-down
        14
        ·
        1 year ago

        Why are we letting the people responsible for Iraq and Afghanistans current state get away with it? Like if the US wants to arrest a war criminal Bush and Cheney are right there. Same for Blair, or Harper, or any of the other architects of the invasions.

        • radiofreeval [she/her]@hexbear.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          45
          arrow-down
          5
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          Because bourgeoisie law does three things. Firstly it protects capital against individuals. Secondly it protects itself against individuals so it can maintain “order”. Finally, it prevents capital against itself, to prevent it devouring itself in competition or sucking hard enough to create a revolutionary populace. Protecting individuals against each other or against capital is not the purpose of law enforcement, much less protecting people from war criminals. (Btw if anyone can find the parenti lecture this was based off, please tell me because i forget)

        • Antikythera@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          10
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          1 year ago

          I’m not saying they should get away with it, I’m just saying that we shouldn’t let Russia get away with it because the United States and the UK got away with it. It’s like the Boomer argument that it’s not fair to them for student loans to be forgiven because they had to pay.

              • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                50
                arrow-down
                4
                ·
                1 year ago

                Do you not understand why I said that? I would not support student loan forgiveness only for white people because, while I like student loan forgiveness, I can recognize that such a program would ultimately just be in the interest of white supremacy. I wouldn’t pull the disingenuous liberal line of “you’ve gotta start somewhere” as though the policy was tethered to some imaginary future state that it is nominally more similar to but practically much further from.

                Likewise, saying “well, at least by holding Belarus to account some countries will be held to account, which gets us closer to all countries being held to account!” is absurd. It promotes western dominance, not the abstract idea of “holding countries to account”. Striking only one side saying that it’s closer to both sides being struck than striking zero sides would be is sophistry.

          • StalinwasaGryffindor [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            30
            arrow-down
            4
            ·
            1 year ago

            I’m not sure where in the world you live, but for myself, I’m in a western country. It would be far more easy for my country to hold the architects of the Afghanistan invasion to account than Putin. The fact that my government doesn’t indicates that all the talk of punishing Russia has nothing to do with punishing aggression, it’s just about punishing a rival

            • Apollo@sh.itjust.works
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              4
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              It’s actually far easier to hold putin to account than western leaders - the western hegemony is hardly going to turn on itself, but it can easily send arms to Ukraine.

              That this arming of ukraine is for completely self interested reasons doesn’t mean it also has the side effect of helping a country fight tyranny. A good thing done for bad reasons can still be a good thing.

              • lad@programming.dev
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                3
                ·
                1 year ago

                Also, if the western countries will get paid for the help afterwards, that’d be an almost free win

          • Aria@lemmygrad.ml
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            7
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            You’re trying to say by implication that the ship has sailed on Bush and Obama, but they’re still alive. The USA Olympics team is still around. Even if you should’ve banned them in 1890 doesn’t mean you still can’t. They haven’t apologised, paid reparations, or ceased any of their human rights violating projects.

        • PerCarita@discuss.tchncs.de
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          Why are we letting China get away with it? Why are we letting Saudi Arabia get away with it? The IOC is a toaster and it’s like you’re asking it to make you a whole roast dinner. It can’t even make toast properly…

          • StalinwasaGryffindor [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            15
            arrow-down
            3
            ·
            1 year ago

            I’m not asking for anything, I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy in calling for punishing Russia for war crimes when in every respect the US and her vassals have committed and are committing orders of magnitude more violence in the last couple decades

            • PerCarita@discuss.tchncs.de
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              *his. Come on, the US is not a motherland, it’s a fatherland.

              This is spiraling into whataboutism and I’m disengaging. Have a nice day!

          • Historical_General@lemm.ee
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            You realise by targetting an official enemy state of the most powerful of the lot, we’re essentially rewarding them? And making them more powerful on the world stage? So a fixation on CN and RU is inherently going to become counter-productive to goals of stability and human development etc.

      • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        19
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        “Just because we let the world’s most prolific serial killer get away with it doesnt mean he shouldnt be allowed to keep murdering if he pinky swears his victims really deserve it this time.”

        We can’t go back in time and fix it but we’ve got to start somewhere.

        We are in total agreement here, and we can start by seizing the levers of power, purging the government of capitalists, withdrawing all troops from everywhere and using them for reforestation work, dismantling the IMF, paying reparations to every country we’ve victimized, and putting every fossil fuel executive and lobbyist against the wall for their omnicidal crimes against all terrestrial life.

      • space_comrade [he/him]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        4
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        but we’ve got to start somewhere.

        Somehow we always seem to be starting with US geopolitical enemies, never the US itself, despite literal centuries of heinous crimes.

        Curious how that works.