Edit: It looks like the argument here is that the US is not calling for an instant ceasefire, but instead saying that one is very important to have. China and Russia say it should be immediate. The US also tied it to hostage talks.

Another resolution is in the works to call for an immediate ceasefire, but the US is expected to veto it because they believe it could endanger hostage talks.

  • LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    12
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    edit-2
    9 months ago

    I can understand it but treating the hostages as merely bargaining chips ignores that they are innocent civilians caught in this idiotic conflict through no fault of their own. Hamas has no right to use the hostages as a tool to protect themselves.

    The real issue with this ceasefire is that linking the ceasefire to the release of the hostages tacitly endorses continued atrocities by IDF if and when the demand for release is ignored.

    • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      edit-2
      9 months ago

      I can understand it but treating the hostages as merely bargaining chips ignores that they are innocent civilians caught in this idiotic conflict through no fault of their own. Hamas has no right to use the hostages as a tool to protect themselves.

      They have the right to use the hostages to protect Gazans. Don’t blame the player, blame the game.

      • LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        9 months ago

        This is a slightly more interesting moral argument but I think in general I would have to disagree. Particularly because it doesn’t seem like the hostages have done much if anything to blunt Israel’s aggression.

        • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          9 months ago

          They haven’t, but we’re not talking about now. We’re talking about later when this mess dies down. The hostages are likely to make a difference in Gaza’s post-war fate. And given the stakes (Israel has been pretty clear they want to re"settle" Gaza) I’d say while the hostages are victims and deserve better we can’t blame Hamas for holding onto them.

          Edit: The hostages are also likely to be involved in things like how much food and other goods Gazans are allowed through the blockade, trying to get Israel to not do random airstrikes and other such things.

    • boyi@lemmy.sdf.org
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      edit-2
      9 months ago

      treating the hostages as merely bargaining chips ignores that they are innocent civilians caught in this idiotic conflict through no fault of their own.

      The way I see it if we look at Hamas side - That’s the only bargaining chips that Hamas has. They’ve got nothing else, nil. Hamas is very dependent on the hostages and they know they would receive greater retaliation from the Israeli after the Oct 7 attack if they didn’t have any hostages. During the attack, the strategy is basically two prongs - get rid of the soldiers, and get as many hostages alive so we can still survive (yes, some hostages did get killed during the real due to some reasons such as miscommunication during the execution of their operations by separate fringe parties). For that very reason, they try to keep the hostages alive because the moment they lost their hostages without any meaningful peace deal, they are basically done.

      • LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        4
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        edit-2
        9 months ago

        Like I said, I understand the reasoning but it’s not morally acceptable. And I think it’s important to point that out.

        Like it might be rational for a death row inmate to steal a nuclear bomb and demand a pardon by threatening to blow up a city.

        But there is still a moral case that it is wrong to do so.

        • boyi@lemmy.sdf.org
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          9 months ago

          Sadly that’s the way things are done when their own survival are at stake. Emotion and moral are not much considered in (their) strategic decision making. People are just pawns on the chessboard.

          • girlfreddy@lemmy.ca
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            9 months ago

            The same can be said of Bibi and the IDF. They see Palestinians as ‘vermin’ that must be eradicated and not people who, according to the creation of Israel post-WW2 by the UN, have a right to live on the land as well.

            Until Israel is forced to follow the UN’s original intention and Hamas is completely dismantled, there will be no peace in the ME.

            • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              3
              ·
              9 months ago

              Let me add that there is a lot more shit hitting fans in the ME than just the Palestine-Israel conflict

              • 𓅂𓄿@c.im
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                2
                ·
                9 months ago

                @girlfreddy @nonailsleft Just fyi “nonailsleft” lime juice seems to do something enzymatically to the fungus which keeps the nail biting cycle going. Whenever I relapse on picking or biting every few years, lime juice stops it in its tracks.

            • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              9 months ago

              Until Israel is forced to follow the UN’s original intention and Hamas is completely dismantled, there will be no peace in the ME.

              Why is only one of these getting dismantled?

              • girlfreddy@lemmy.ca
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                9 months ago

                Because I believe Israel should exist in conjunction with Palestinian lands.

                Just my opinion.

                • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  9 months ago

                  Israel the modern state shouldn’t exist, not at all. It’s an Apartheid settler colonialist state and much more of a terrorist organization than Hamas. Now whether Palestine should be partitioned with one part given to Jews that’s a different debate, but even then that should be a new state built from the ground up with an actually fair constitution and international supervision. I say even then because I believe one democratic state is a lot better than two states that are likely to go to war with each other and much more liable to become Apartheid states.