This is a very weird question, so no worries if y’all don’t have great answers because I have exactly zero answers myself.

I’ve been thinking recently about how I am a dedicated ML, and do subscribe to materialism. But I also have a spiritual tinge to me, one that was pretty fired up by psychedelic use and the listening to some Buddhist audios along with Duncan Trussell and Alan Watts.

I guess I’m just wondering if there’s any serious contradictions by subscribing to MLMZT while also getting a little deeper into the metaphysical aspect of philosophy? I have always found the Buddhist outlook and the lenses that I look at life through propelled by psychedelic use very useful, interesting, motivating, and just fun.

Like, I can recognize when there’s people just saying extremely vague things and selling a “get enlightened NOW” course for $999.99, so don’t get the idea that I’m like falling into some culty shit. I just enjoy the hope-core, insightful/philosophical takes that don’t seem to fall directly in line with Marxism.

The Egg story (Kurg video on YT ironically enough, the Gates funded channel) being an example, or Duncan Trussells “The Midnight Gospel” (which I haven’t actually watched but just saw the one famous clip of the mother being sucked away into death as she talked about the ego, reincarnation, the universe just being love, etc.)

Interestingly, I actually got involved with Marxism originally partly because of psychedelic use and the shock it sent through my philosophical/world outlook.

Anyways yap over, THIRD PARAGRAPH IS THE MEAT OF THE POST!!! thx in advance <3

  • DankZedong @lemmygrad.ml
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    9 months ago

    I’m into spirituality. Meditating, reading about religion, talking to religious people, sometimes even praying with them, spiritual things involving nature and the universe etc. Hasn’t stopped me from being a marxist.

    Maybe it isn’t always a perfect combination but the perfect Marxist doesn’t exist I guess. I have fun while doing so and I learn a lot of new things about a lot of cultures.

    • TeezyZeezy@lemmygrad.mlOP
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      9 months ago

      That’s kind of what I thought I’d hear and what I already sort of believed, I just wanted to hear this community’s thoughts.

      Spirituality helps me with the things I can’t make sense of using Marxism (which honestly is pretty little, outside of the largest unanswered questions known to human kind lol). It gives a motivating and interesting look into the very weird coincidences that I experience, and like you said, experience into other cultures and practicing mindfulness through meditation. It is just a net positive for me, and it’s not like it directly contradicts any actions I take in the world. It seems to validate further my organizational efforts to better society.

  • cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml
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    9 months ago

    I think this is ultimately a personal question that every communist has to answer for themselves. For me the two are not compatible and i personally see no place for “spirituality” in my belief system. But if you do manage to make the two compatible for yourself then i think there’s nothing wrong with it. There are millions of great and dedicated communists around the world, many of them in China too, who are spiritual (though not necessarily theist) and find a way to make their spiritual beliefs compatible with Marxism-Leninism.

    • TeezyZeezy@lemmygrad.mlOP
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      9 months ago

      I see it this way too I mean I certainly will not look down on anyone for being spiritual or not. I think it’d be a bit harder to justify/reconcile being an explicit theist or specific follower of a specific religion, but even then I have respect for it. The important piece to me is working to do the right thing down here in the real world.

  • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml
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    9 months ago

    If you’re making this post without being familiar with Revolutionary Left Radio you’re going to love that podcast. There are contradictions looking at it dialectically, but I don’t think that’s a problem because as they’ve said on the last podcast, Marxism studies and tries to change the objective world, but mysticism/whatever I’d for the subjective world and they balance. There are certainly synthesis and overlap between dialectical materialism and Buddhism.

    https://revolutionaryleftradio.libsyn.com/size/5/?search=Buddhism

    Edit: the sister show Shoeless in South Dakota is the reason I’m finally meditating consistently

    Edit 4?: for the Mao Zedong thought bit in particular, they cover Mao in the excellent dialectics series and you will surely see a connection if they don’t explicitly make one.

  • 小莱卡@lemmygrad.ml
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    9 months ago

    Spiritualism and marxism are not compatible, however this doesnt mean you can’t live with some degree of both. Contradictions are inherent in nature, until you’re ready to resolve them its ok to study both.

  • PoliticalCustard@lemmygrad.ml
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    9 months ago

    Not weird at all. I share similar politics and have always been fascinated by psychedelics, drugs in general, dance culture, counter culture, etc. There was the work of Mark Fisher and Acid Communism, and later efforts to start the movement Acid Corbynism. There’s a really good Mark Fisher influenced podcast ACFM (Acid Corbynism FM) https://novaramedia.com/category/audio/acfm/

    An article you might enjoy is Turn On, Tune In, Rise Up - https://communemag.com/turn-on-tune-in-rise-up/

    Acid against austerity.

    When cultural theorist, author, and blogger Mark Fisher passed away in 2017, he left behind an unfinished book manuscript. Acid Communism: On Post-Capitalist Desire was to continue the project of his 2009 book Capitalist Realism: Is There No Alternative? In Capitalist Realism, Fisher wrote that decades of deregulation had all but fully destroyed our ability to imagine viable alternatives to capitalism. If we couldn’t envision a better world, he declared, there could be little hope that such a world would manifest. Capitalist Realism was by no means defeatist, though. The book concludes with a call to action: Fisher draws attention to what he saw as the most urgently needed political resource. If the future we want lies at the limits of our imagination we must begin there — with the creative, unruly parts of our consciousness, that parts that capital wants to claim as its own. The current political nightmare, he suggests, will only be defeated by vibrant dreams.

      • PoliticalCustard@lemmygrad.ml
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        9 months ago

        Having read more of your low effort replies listed on your profile I will not be replying more fully to your willful misreading of what I wrote above. No offense. :)

      • TeezyZeezy@lemmygrad.mlOP
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        9 months ago

        Yeah I don’t think that’s what they meant though like of course just going “whooaaa man floating rock and like be nice” isn’t going to fix shit but i think the point was that we cannot take the actions necessary before we have an awareness of the potential to have a better world and the connection to how acid can bring us to that.

    • TeezyZeezy@lemmygrad.mlOP
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      9 months ago

      I fuck with this tbh. Dropping tabs when I was younger was a pretty large moment in opening up my imagination and critiques of how we currently live and how I want to live. It didn’t give me any anti-capitalist thought, but motivated me to pursue a life I wanted which led me to realize: I can’t under this system.

      Not sure if that’s the whole gist of what you wrote/ the pod or show but yeah.

  • loathsome dongeater@lemmygrad.ml
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    9 months ago

    It is not a topic that I have seriously looked into so I will just spew my opinion and I welcome corrections. Spirituality has existed in many forms throughout history. In various shapes and forms, spirituality has been ubiquitous across all civilisations that I know of.

    Some iterations of it can be anti-materialist. Like the conception of the spirit or soul in Hinduism where there is a cycle of birth death and rebirth is something I find pretty BS. It has also been used as a tool to uphold the caste system, where the lower cost folks would be told that their systemic oppression, which they are subjected to by the upper castes including Brahmins, was a result of whatever they did in their past lives and if they were good slaves maybe they would be born in a higher caste in the next cycle.

    Following the renaissance and the valorisation of capitalism, science went through somewhat of a honeymoon phase. When Newton was able to figure out the laws of nature to such an extent that the movements of celestial bodies could be predicted fairly accurately, when Einstein unraveled the cosmic fabric in such depths that phenomena that had not been so far observed could be predicted correctly, one could only dream what would come next. It seemed that humans had truly comquered nature. It seemed like the universe would make itself clear to us once we tore through the onion of existence until we found the last indivisible unit of being from which we would construct of a model of the universe which would answer the questions we didn’t know we had.

    However, science has since slowed down. In the name of innovation we have things like LLMs, bitcoin, Bill Gates proposing that we sprinkle the atmosphere with reflective particles to avert global warming with dubious consequences. The human genome has been sequenced but the Western world cannot figure out how to engorge themselves with red meat without giving themselves colon cancer or setting the planet ablaze. Science has progressed in important ways but understandably not at the same pace as earlier. That is just the law of diminishing returns. Or maybe the scientific community is not asking the correct questions. Whatever I am too dumb to figure out the problem anyway.

    In the eye of this storm lies our burden of our consciousness. The whats, whys and hows of it are still extremely open ended. Science has been a disappointment in this regard so far. As things are it is not clear whether science, at least as we know it, is even capable of telling me why I feel like a formless blob of sentience puppeteering the bag of meat and bones that is my body. I think spirituality is very important to come to terms with stuff like this. It still has a role to play.

    • TeezyZeezy@lemmygrad.mlOP
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      9 months ago

      I agree with basically everything you said here. And just to specify again I am not falling into a spirituality or religion where I rely on it or allow it to alter my actions or prevent me from doing something I know is good in the real world. I’m merely experimenting with it in thought and using what I can to appreciate the world and universe around me, to think, to love, etc.

      As you said, conceptualize the formless blob of sentience puppeteering the bag of meat and make sense (even incorrectly) of some things temporarily to keep me sane.

    • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml
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      9 months ago

      historical materialist analysis of religion that doesn’t start with hunter gatherer animism

      Smh/j

      I think the reason science slowed down is there is no longer a profit incentive. Back in the day you could become rich by inventing the new thing, now the government does it in an overpriced way and hands it over to existing corporations to slightly increase profits. Capitalism was a great engine of science, but it wore out as the surplus capital piled up.

      An interesting question is how religion will evolve into communism. Since feudal times there’s been Christian communism, but what will stuff like that look like when the proletariat is in charge?

      I agree our understanding of consciousness is lacking, and something like meditation can improve it, but what you say can lead to the conclusion that there is a “ghost in the machine,” which is anti-materialist.

      • loathsome dongeater@lemmygrad.ml
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        9 months ago

        but what you say can lead to the conclusion

        Sorry but I am not following here. First of all I don’t understand what ghost in the machine means in this context. Secondly I am not sure which part of what I said you are referring to here.

        • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml
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          9 months ago

          Sorry, I’m referring to the last paragraph. It could be taken to mean that consciousness can only be explained by metaphysical means, and is beyond science. “The ghost in the machine” is a phrase that describes Cartesian dualism where a soul or soul like thing is said to inhabit a physical body from beyond the material world.

          • loathsome dongeater@lemmygrad.ml
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            9 months ago

            I meant to say that the way I described it is one way to perceive it, not the correct one of course. It can seem that way at times, especially when our consciousness sort of dissociates from the physical part of our being. Science has not come close to explaining what features of our neurology make consciousness happen and other such questions which I cannot fathom. Spirituality is not a drop-in replacement for hard scientific analysis but it can be useful when it grapple with questions about our sense of purpose, staying motivated, sane, contended in the chaos that surrounds us, our sense of connection with our loved ones and so on. Science as we study it leads to answers that teeter on the precipice of individualistic nihilism.

            • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml
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              9 months ago

              I agree

              especially when our consciousness sort of dissociates from the physical part of our being.

              My take is influenced by various and contradictory things, but I can attempt an explanation. Humans can never experience the universe as it “really is.” Our brains are a product of evolution, and our senses are not “correct,” they are just useful for survival. We have no metaphysical “control” of our thoughts, they are the product of a natural process. Our thoughts are largely spontaneous, which you’ll notice if you meditate. Thus, it is possible to tune into one’s senses to a greater or lesser extent, but it is no more “real” either way.

  • relay@lemmygrad.ml
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    9 months ago

    If you buy in to the notion that we are spirits embodied in flesh to play a role until we die and reincarnate, what should you do? Most religions adhere to helping your community, your family and even the older ones tell you to honor the earth. We are material beings for now with interesting abilities, which is undeniable. The scientific method is the most accurate means to unlock and understand this world and control it. Do you think that whatever put us on this only planet with life as far as we could tell sent us here to destroy earth? If not, preserve earth. Preserve earth to give life to your children and your children’s children or if you don’t have children, those that live after you. Capitalism is antithetical to a good life and good experience for the future and perhaps to our species. To do your part as a material being for this short life, do what you know is good. As far as I can tell, to do good is to advocate for communism and build it with what i’ve been blessed with.

    • QueerCommie@lemmygrad.ml
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      9 months ago

      Yeah, I don’t know how anyone can believe in morally biased deities. However, the atheist or pantheist route is more plausible. Thanks to revleft, among other influences, I am compelled by the view that all the material universe is god. We are part of the unity, the universe experiencing itself. The spinozan view, and it does not contradict a scientific worldview, but can enhance it. This view is compatible with some sort of all major religions, though not the mainstream kind. I also think it’s great how Buddhism isn’t just some doctrine you accept, but something that can be verified by your own internal experience. I’m not far on my journey, but I’ve found meditation very successful at helping me understand my mind and experience the world in a better state. It’s not for everyone, but they make a strong case on the last Red Menace episode for a complementary role of spirituality to scientific socialism.

  • nephs@lemmygrad.ml
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    9 months ago

    There’s a video from Jones Manoel, Brazilian communist, on the topic a few months ago.

    Highly recommend his work, use captions and auto translation!

    https://youtu.be/-9i2S5i3Oi0

    Edit: got a summary from https://summarize.tech/www.youtube.com/watch=-9i2S5i3Oi0:

    In the YouTube video titled “É comunista e não é ateu?”, the speaker explores the relationship between communism and atheism, arguing that communism does not necessitate atheism. The speaker challenges the idea that human behavior is guided by a completely rational and all-powerful reason, instead emphasizing the role of socialization and unconscious influences. The speaker also discusses the evolving role of religion in society, asserting that people’s primary actions are secular and materialistic. The speaker concludes that there is no inherent contradiction between being a materialist and holding religious or spiritual beliefs, and acknowledges the complex relationship between religion and ideology. The speaker encourages viewers to engage in further debate on the topic.

    00:00:00 In this section of the YouTube video titled "É comunista e não é ateu?", the speaker begins by thanking viewers for their support and announcing the completion of a project. He then addresses the common belief that all communists must be atheists, stating that he will engage in a debate on the topic. The speaker argues against the idea that communism necessitates atheism, citing the concept of Illuminism and its belief in the all-powerful reason guiding human actions. He explains that this idea of onipotent reason has been challenged by Marxist debates on ideology, which reveal the existence of social structures that shape human understanding and perception. The speaker also mentions the contributions of Freud's debate on the unconscious and Soviet psychology's focus on the historically specific role of consciousness within social and production relations. Overall, the speaker argues that the idea of a completely rational and all-powerful reason guiding human behavior is a relativized concept, as it must be understood from a class perspective and in relation to social structures and unconscious influences.
    
    00:05:00 In this section of the YouTube video titled "É comunista e não é ateu?", the speaker discusses the limitations of theoretical reasoning in shaping human behavior. They argue that socialization plays a significant role in forming our behaviors and understanding of societal dynamics, such as capitalism. However, even someone deeply immersed in Marxist theory may not be able to fully practice anti-capitalist values in their interpersonal relationships and individual actions. The speaker also addresses the misconception that Marxism necessitates atheism, explaining that it is rooted in a specific understanding of religion as an all-encompassing ontology and cosmology. Instead, Marxism offers a humanized perspective on relationships and power structures, which are not divinely given but rather shaped by human relations.
    
    00:10:00 In this section of the YouTube video titled "É comunista e não é ateu?", the speaker discusses the evolving role of religion in society, specifically in relation to the idea that "God is dead." The speaker argues that while people may attribute certain events or outcomes to God, their primary actions are secular and materialistic. For example, to eat, one needs money, and to get money, one must work or find ways to acquire it. When people are sick, they seek medical help rather than relying on divine intervention. The speaker asserts that God has become a secondary figure in people's lives, and this is socially acceptable. The speaker also mentions that while people may pray for help or success, they still take action themselves, such as studying for a test or looking for a job. The speaker uses the example of Iran as a country with a strong religious identity but also a highly industrialized military, demonstrating the separation of religious and secular spheres.
    
    00:15:00 In this section of the YouTube video titled "É comunista e não é ateu?", the speaker discusses the idea that there is no inherent contradiction between being a materialist and holding religious or spiritual beliefs. Contrary to the belief that religion occupies an all-encompassing ontological role in explaining the workings of the world, the speaker argues that one can be a firm materialist and hold a separate place for spirituality in their life. The speaker also emphasizes that the concept of God as an all-powerful being does not necessarily conflict with a materialist worldview, as people can establish relationships with various deities or spiritual entities without contradicting their materialist beliefs. The speaker concludes that there is no philosophical contradiction between being a consistent materialist and holding religious or spiritual beliefs.
    
    00:20:00 In this section of the YouTube video "É comunista e não é ateu?", the speaker discusses the complex relationship between religion and ideology, specifically in the context of justifying feudalism. He argues that religion, particularly Christianity, played a significant role in legitimizing feudalism as the primary ideological apparatus. The speaker also emphasizes the importance of both passion and reason in political movements, using examples like the Cuban Revolution and the figure of Fidel Castro. He suggests that religion and superstition have a place in political movements, rather than being negated or contradicted by theoretical understanding. The speaker references Nelson Verne's book about the Prestes Column and the belief among the people that the leader had supernatural powers. He concludes by acknowledging the importance of socializing scientific knowledge and complex theoretical understanding, but also recognizing the role of religion in shaping people's beliefs and understanding of the world.
    
    00:25:00 In this section of the YouTube video titled "É comunista e não é ateu?", the speaker discusses the idea that highly politicized and educated people with access to the best cultural productions can still be religious, but may shift the role of religion in their lives. They argue that there is no irreconcilable contradiction between being Marxist and having some form of religion or spirituality. However, they acknowledge that guiding political action and strategy based on theological understandings of the world from an anthological and totalizing perspective can be a contradiction. The speaker emphasizes that this topic is complex and encourages viewers to engage with the debate further. They conclude by reminding viewers to subscribe to their channel, like and share the video. 
    
  • porcupine@lemmygrad.ml
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    9 months ago

    A person can be a fitness enthusiast and eat a ton of junk food, but that doesn’t mean a synthesis between the two is possible.