I have strong feelings about this because I miss horny comedies like American Pie, and sexy thrillers like Wild Things. I miss stuff like Fast Times at Ridgemont High, Boogie Nights, Office Space, Eyes Wide Shut, True Lies. They all had sex/nudity in a way that furthered the plot, or was just plain fun. All of the criticisms I see here sadden me:
• “It doesn’t further the plot!!!”
It can absolutely be an important part of the story. See the examples above. Look at most of our ancient mythologies. On top of that I pose the question: Why does it have to further the plot?! Why does sex/nudity have to justify itself when tons of movies have gratuitous action scenes and violence that add nothing to the plot? 90% of John Wick is gratuitous violence that added nothing to the story (but I still love it). Our culture celebrates violence and we’ll watch people get tortured to death without batting an eye - but if some tits show up on screen then suddenly everyone becomes a critic analyzing whether the story REALLY needed it or not.
• “I don’t want to watch that with my kids/parents/coworkers/etc”
I agree. So don’t. Some of my favorite movies are raunchy comedies or sexy thrillers that I would never want to watch in polite company. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t exist! If art were constrained by what you wanted to display in front of your kids/parents/coworkers then our artistic & cultural landscape would be a much bleaker place.
• “We have easy access to porn, I don’t need porn in my movies!”
The fact that you only equate sex/nudity to porn reveals a problem. Kids today can’t associate sex/nudity on a screen as art, or even just fun, anymore - because in their minds sex/nudity is inextricably tied to porn. The reality is sex/nudity can be fun, dramatic, scary, or funny depending on the context. It can have a place in many kinds of stories, and comparing it to porn is like saying “we have war documentaries so we don’t need war movies.” They are completely different things!!
• “It’s usually cringey & not done well.”
By that logic you could make arguments against a lot of different genres and classic story elements. I don’t like the argument that because media these days sucks at doing something they should avoid it altogether. I think they should just do better. Movies in the 80s and 90s proved it can be done.
It’s disturbing to me that we’re culturally encouraged to find fun in violence but sex needs to be cordoned off to a containment genre and excised from mainstream art. I’m not saying it needs to be in every movie - but its been obvious for a while they’re going out of their way to avoid it, even in places where it would make sense or be fun. I want art to stop awkwardly excluding a major part of life. I want out of this “Everyone is beautiful and no one is horny” Twilight Zone multiverse that all our modern movies seem to take place in.
Yes. Yes, yes, yes. I was having this exact conversation in another thread in c/movies not three days ago. The fear of sex is just astounding to me. And it being equated only to porn was more than a little troubling.
If violence doesn’t further the plot then it shouldn’t be in there either.
Nobody is saying you can’t have sexy comedies. We’re just tired of stupid shit like the mid-life threatening event romance scene. The timer on the bomb is literally counting down and they take the time to profess their love and it’s not a comedy so I’m the asshole for laughing in the theater.
It’s been ridiculous for decades and we’re tired of it.
If violence doesn’t further the plot then it shouldn’t be in there either.
A lot of action movies would be very short. My poor kung fu movies would need to be cut down to about 15 minutes. Why can’t we sometimes just have gratuitous things for the fun of it? Not everything needs to be high art.
We’re just tired of stupid shit like the mid-life threatening event romance scene. The timer on the bomb is literally counting down and they take the time to profess their love and it’s not a comedy so I’m the asshole for laughing in the theater.
I don’t think that’s an inherent problem with sex/nudity/romance, the problem is just bad filmmaking. With good writing/acting/directing/editing that exact cliche’ scenario you describe could be done in such a way as to be genuinely funny, or touching, or sexy.
Nobody is arguing that all movies need to remove violence or sexy? Where are you even getting that from?
But no one here is arguing the problem is inherently with sex or romance…you pulled that assumption out of your ass. The entire point of this thread is that unnecessary sex or violence is a crutch of bad film making…
Nobody is arguing that all movies need to remove violence or sexy? Where are you even getting that from?
The comment I’m replying to (and quoted) literally said: “If violence doesn’t further the plot then it shouldn’t be in there either.” And plenty of people in these comments are arguing that if sexiness doesn’t further the plot it shouldn’t be there.
But no one here is arguing the problem is inherently with sex or romance
Again, the person I’m replying to was explicitly saying that forced romantic scenes suck, as if they are inherently a problem. I’m just saying I think the “forced” part is the problem, not the romance/sex/nudity. People here are denigrating sex/nudity/romance in film when what they should be mad at is bad filmmaking in general.
That is literally what everyone else is saying. You are arguing with no one.
The problem IS shitty filmmaking. The specific examples of shitty filmmaking being discussed are pointless violence and pointless sex scenes that don’t contribute to the movie in any way.
Uh no, lots of people here are arguing that all sex scenes that don’t actively move the plot forward are inherently pointless and shouldn’t be there. And I’m disagreeing.
Sex/nude scenes can positively contribute to the mood, themes, character development, world building, and other things that aren’t absolutely necessary to move a plot forward.
If the original article was titled “Teens want better implementation of sex in movies” I wouldn’t have commented. But most people aren’t complaining about “bad implementation” or “bad filmmaking” - they’re saying they don’t want sex in film at all unless ABSOLUTELY necessary, and I think that’s unfortunate.
I would appreciate less violence too. It feels like since GoT they have to put some gory violence and some sex scenes into everything that is targeted at an adult audience.
The point really is not about fundamental opposition. It is about being oversaturated and hence tired of it. That is why it is annoying when it doesn’t further the plot, is done cringey or well, seems like an attempt at being porn of some sort. That stuff worked in the 80s and 90s, when people still had to rent VHS. People being addicted to porn and harming themselves with their overconsumption but being in denial about it probably also adds in here.
Even in kids movies I get questions like “does the goomba die when Mario smashes it?”
Thats maybe an absurd example but I think it highlights how we see stories where characters often solve their problems with violence, even as a first choice.
Sometimes the tone is wildly off too, like watching the good guy kill multiple people and then everyone is jovial about it.
Slaughter their way through an army of henchmen who presumably have families and homes to go to and are nothing more than hired goons, before getting to the mastermind and mostly just giving them a firm telling off and taking them to prison.
Statistically, there’s a lot more violence and a lot less sex for people under the age of 30. So it just kind of reflects the experiences of young people I guess.
I have strong feelings about this because I miss horny comedies like American Pie, and sexy thrillers like Wild Things. I miss stuff like Fast Times at Ridgemont High, Boogie Nights, Office Space, Eyes Wide Shut, True Lies. They all had sex/nudity in a way that furthered the plot, or was just plain fun. All of the criticisms I see here sadden me:
It can absolutely be an important part of the story. See the examples above. Look at most of our ancient mythologies. On top of that I pose the question: Why does it have to further the plot?! Why does sex/nudity have to justify itself when tons of movies have gratuitous action scenes and violence that add nothing to the plot? 90% of John Wick is gratuitous violence that added nothing to the story (but I still love it). Our culture celebrates violence and we’ll watch people get tortured to death without batting an eye - but if some tits show up on screen then suddenly everyone becomes a critic analyzing whether the story REALLY needed it or not.
I agree. So don’t. Some of my favorite movies are raunchy comedies or sexy thrillers that I would never want to watch in polite company. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t exist! If art were constrained by what you wanted to display in front of your kids/parents/coworkers then our artistic & cultural landscape would be a much bleaker place.
The fact that you only equate sex/nudity to porn reveals a problem. Kids today can’t associate sex/nudity on a screen as art, or even just fun, anymore - because in their minds sex/nudity is inextricably tied to porn. The reality is sex/nudity can be fun, dramatic, scary, or funny depending on the context. It can have a place in many kinds of stories, and comparing it to porn is like saying “we have war documentaries so we don’t need war movies.” They are completely different things!!
By that logic you could make arguments against a lot of different genres and classic story elements. I don’t like the argument that because media these days sucks at doing something they should avoid it altogether. I think they should just do better. Movies in the 80s and 90s proved it can be done.
It’s disturbing to me that we’re culturally encouraged to find fun in violence but sex needs to be cordoned off to a containment genre and excised from mainstream art. I’m not saying it needs to be in every movie - but its been obvious for a while they’re going out of their way to avoid it, even in places where it would make sense or be fun. I want art to stop awkwardly excluding a major part of life. I want out of this “Everyone is beautiful and no one is horny” Twilight Zone multiverse that all our modern movies seem to take place in.
Sex is too important to be left to porn.
Oh man, I wish I could give you more than one upvote. Thank you for this well reasoned defense of sex in movies.
Yes. Yes, yes, yes. I was having this exact conversation in another thread in c/movies not three days ago. The fear of sex is just astounding to me. And it being equated only to porn was more than a little troubling.
If violence doesn’t further the plot then it shouldn’t be in there either.
Nobody is saying you can’t have sexy comedies. We’re just tired of stupid shit like the mid-life threatening event romance scene. The timer on the bomb is literally counting down and they take the time to profess their love and it’s not a comedy so I’m the asshole for laughing in the theater.
It’s been ridiculous for decades and we’re tired of it.
A lot of action movies would be very short. My poor kung fu movies would need to be cut down to about 15 minutes. Why can’t we sometimes just have gratuitous things for the fun of it? Not everything needs to be high art.
I don’t think that’s an inherent problem with sex/nudity/romance, the problem is just bad filmmaking. With good writing/acting/directing/editing that exact cliche’ scenario you describe could be done in such a way as to be genuinely funny, or touching, or sexy.
Sure. Sometimes. As a specific movie made for that. Not every single show and movie producers can cram it into.
Agreed. Too often it feels like they’re just trying to check a box or fill time.
Nobody is arguing that all movies need to remove violence or sexy? Where are you even getting that from?
But no one here is arguing the problem is inherently with sex or romance…you pulled that assumption out of your ass. The entire point of this thread is that unnecessary sex or violence is a crutch of bad film making…
The comment I’m replying to (and quoted) literally said: “If violence doesn’t further the plot then it shouldn’t be in there either.” And plenty of people in these comments are arguing that if sexiness doesn’t further the plot it shouldn’t be there.
Again, the person I’m replying to was explicitly saying that forced romantic scenes suck, as if they are inherently a problem. I’m just saying I think the “forced” part is the problem, not the romance/sex/nudity. People here are denigrating sex/nudity/romance in film when what they should be mad at is bad filmmaking in general.
That is literally what everyone else is saying. You are arguing with no one.
The problem IS shitty filmmaking. The specific examples of shitty filmmaking being discussed are pointless violence and pointless sex scenes that don’t contribute to the movie in any way.
Uh no, lots of people here are arguing that all sex scenes that don’t actively move the plot forward are inherently pointless and shouldn’t be there. And I’m disagreeing.
Sex/nude scenes can positively contribute to the mood, themes, character development, world building, and other things that aren’t absolutely necessary to move a plot forward.
If the original article was titled “Teens want better implementation of sex in movies” I wouldn’t have commented. But most people aren’t complaining about “bad implementation” or “bad filmmaking” - they’re saying they don’t want sex in film at all unless ABSOLUTELY necessary, and I think that’s unfortunate.
I would appreciate less violence too. It feels like since GoT they have to put some gory violence and some sex scenes into everything that is targeted at an adult audience.
The point really is not about fundamental opposition. It is about being oversaturated and hence tired of it. That is why it is annoying when it doesn’t further the plot, is done cringey or well, seems like an attempt at being porn of some sort. That stuff worked in the 80s and 90s, when people still had to rent VHS. People being addicted to porn and harming themselves with their overconsumption but being in denial about it probably also adds in here.
To be fair game of thrones turned out to be a scam. At the time we thought there was plot reasons for literally everything.
I can’t even get 15 minutes through episode one now before the plot utterly collapses and I have to stop.
Great points! Personally for me I can do with less gorey violence. What I’m most interested in is good action sequences.
Even in kids movies I get questions like “does the goomba die when Mario smashes it?”
Thats maybe an absurd example but I think it highlights how we see stories where characters often solve their problems with violence, even as a first choice.
Sometimes the tone is wildly off too, like watching the good guy kill multiple people and then everyone is jovial about it.
All those comic book movies are especially weird.
Slaughter their way through an army of henchmen who presumably have families and homes to go to and are nothing more than hired goons, before getting to the mastermind and mostly just giving them a firm telling off and taking them to prison.
Statistically, there’s a lot more violence and a lot less sex for people under the age of 30. So it just kind of reflects the experiences of young people I guess.